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Post by milehighmike on Nov 27, 2012 0:36:40 GMT -5
I've got F1 (I think) seeds that have a Delicata father and Pomme D'Or mother. I saved these seeds two years ago from a Pomme D'Or vine. I saved seeds from two fruit that looked just like a Pomme D'Or should. I grew them last year and got all Pomme D'Or. I grew them again from the same original saved seeds this year and got both Pomme D'Or and what appears to be a cross with Delicata (I had seven different winter squash two years ago). The vines that produced the crossed fruit produced only the same crossed fruit. I sell tomatoes to restaurants and share some of my other crops with the chefs to get their opinions. Well, I thought this cross was quite good, and so did the chefs. It has white flesh with a great flavor and very creamy texture. Average wieight is about 12 ounces. I'm pretty new to saving sees and BRAND new to breeding (not that I bred these, nature just did its thing), so I have a few questions. 1 - My understanding is that I should expect several different varities next year when I grow out these seeds and get the F2s. Is that correct? 2 - I still have more of the original seeds that appear to contain pure Pomme D'Or and this cross. Could there be more variants (in F2 form) waiting there, and thus worth growing out? 3 - This may be a silly question, but does anyone want to help me grow these out? I have a lot of seeds and am willing to share as long as I get seeds back from you (you can keep some for yourself too, of course). I have posted a picture below. I may have some of the terminology wrong and appreciate all help and advice. Thanks! Attachments:
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Post by Joseph Lofthouse on Nov 27, 2012 1:07:36 GMT -5
Welcome, and thanks for sharing the photo.
Sure looks like a [Pomme D'or X Delicata] to me. The seeds from the squash you posted a picture of are the F2 seeds. You get F2 plants when you sow them. You didn't say whether or not the other varieties of winter squash were of the Pepo species or some other species. Did you also grow other pepo summer squash like crookneck, or zucchini? If the only pepos that you grew were Pomme D'or and Delicata, then you will not find more diversity if you plant more of the originally saved seed.
The F1 hybrid offspring of two (inbred or open pollinated) varieties will all look about the same, and will look about like a blend between the two parents. The F2 offspring is where the most diversity shows up, and offspring are likely to be all kinds of different shapes and colors in all sorts of combinations. That is if they were selfed this summer. If you also grew other pepo cultivars this summer, then you are likely to have some new promiscuously pollinated hybrids, and some segregating lines, and some back-crosses which will look a bit more like the original squash than the general population.
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Post by milehighmike on Nov 27, 2012 1:31:18 GMT -5
Thank Joseph! That was helpful. I'm picking up on a few things now.
The other pepos I grew that year were Sweet Dumpling (which could also be a parent, very similar stripes to Delicata), yellow straightneck, and zucchini. I also grew the two summer squash this year very close to the crossed one.
So it would appear your recommendation for stabalizing this would be to grow out the most recent seeds in an isolated area, correct?
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Post by Joseph Lofthouse on Nov 27, 2012 3:21:05 GMT -5
So it would appear your recommendation for stabalizing this would be to grow out the most recent seeds in an isolated area, correct? It's already stabilized if you recreate the F1 hybrid. You'd only need to regenerate the hybrid every 4 to 5 years. And you'd only need to plant one hill of each type to make the cross. I purposefully introduce instability into my crops, so I don't have experience stabilizing things... But the general procedure is to grow out a large enough population that the traits you are looking for are likely to show up. Then select one plant and self it. Repeat for about 5 years. That will get you an open pollinated (euphemism for inbred and/or stabilized) population. In order to be stabilized in the seed industry sense, a plant has to be, in all measurable characteristics, a clone of itself. I work towards phenotype similarity within my landrace populations. For example I grow a promiscuously pollinated population of sweet corn. All the plants in the population are similar in that they require about 75 days to maturity. They all grow about 6 feet tall. They all thrive in my soil and climate. I allow other traits to vary, such as number of tillers, and cob size, and flower color, and leaf color, and kernel color. That is not stabilized in the sense used by the seed industry. I grow a crookneck landrace. A non-observant person would say that they are stabilized crookneck, but they are not: There are slight differences in fruit shape, and proportions of the neck/bulb, and in skin bumpiness, and in color tone, and in flesh thickness, etc... I maintain the illusion that they are stabilized by careful roguing, and by growing them in isolation in a field all by themselves. Early in the growing season I mercilessly chop out anything that does not produce fruits that look exactly like a crookneck fruit. However, I do not do any culling because of growth characteristics such as leaf shape, or differences in internode length, so there are a few plants with sprawling growth habit rather than the more common bush habit.
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Post by oxbowfarm on Nov 27, 2012 6:38:34 GMT -5
If you grow those F2 seeds out you are not necessarily going to get all great squash. And you will definitely see a big variation in fruit shape and color. Often you will see characteristics show up that were not apparent in either of the two parent varieties. For example, Ray's Pepita is a stabilizing cross between Lady Godiva and Thelma Sanders Sweet Potato. The F2 generation showed many individuals with warty, hard shells which neither parent expresses. The F2 generation is the most fun, but it is also the generation with the maximum variability in phenotype.
If you really like this hybrid then the easiest thing to do is to keep growing the F1 seed and grow out Delicata and Pomme D'Or and hand cross them to get more. The trick is that you aren't sure if Delicata or Sweet Dumpling is the parent? Easy to do both crosses.
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Post by milehighmike on Nov 27, 2012 8:57:44 GMT -5
Thanks Oxbow and Joseph. That's what I wanted to know. While I really like this cross, I am also very excited to see what else gets produced in the F2. I will focus on growing out as many as possible of them.
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