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Post by MikeH on Feb 8, 2012 10:19:44 GMT -5
I've got some extremely hard coated seeds that I think might need more than cold stratification or scarification. I've seen suggestions of sulphuric acid, nitric acid, hydrogen peroxide, vinegar, GA-3. David Theodoropoulos has a fairly detailed presentation - www.jlhudsonseeds.net/Germination.htmSince I'm not crazy about playing with sulphuric and nitric acid and my GA-3 probably needs to be replaced, I'm thinking of hydogen peroxide. Has anyone tried this? Had successes? Regards, Mike
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Post by spacecase0 on Feb 8, 2012 12:53:19 GMT -5
the only method I have tried is taking some of the seed coat off with a file, and it worked very well on my blue lotus seeds and my tea seeds.
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Post by 12540dumont on Feb 8, 2012 12:54:46 GMT -5
Mike, GA- 3 helps to break dormancy Hydrogen Peroxide helps to eliminate seed borne diseases Beer can help break dormancy Fish Emulsion/Schultz' Instant Plant Food/Kelp (Any of these nitrogen things can help old seed get going).
It helps to know what type of seed you are breaking dormancy for. I have found JL to be VERY helpful. In a brief note to his e-mail, put the name of seed that you're trying to break dormancy of and ask him what he recommends. He's started millions of seeds. Be sure to include your home address in the e-mail, or he will NOT answer you.
Good luck!
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Post by MikeH on Feb 9, 2012 23:19:30 GMT -5
Hi Holly,
Four varieties of Crataegus - monogyna, laevigata, phaenopyrum, and crus-gali. I dug out my trusty Propagation of Trees, Shrubs & Conifers. Macmillan and Co., 1948 to see what Mr. Sheats says. 18 month germination period!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Patience, patience, patience. No wonder acid is recommended today. I'll see what JL has to say.
Thanks
Regards, Mike
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Post by oxbowfarm on Feb 10, 2012 6:39:51 GMT -5
According to my Dirr and Heuser"Reference Manual of Woody Plant Propogation" all four of those need a 3 to 4 month cold stratification. C. monogyna, laevigata, and crus-gali all need acid treatment. crus-gali also has a reccomendation for a short warm stratification before the cold stratification. C. phaenopyrum doesn't need any acid treatment. Have fun! "Acid to water do as you oughta!" Don't put your eye out young man.
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Post by MikeH on Feb 10, 2012 7:04:04 GMT -5
I'd forgotten about Norman Deno. A quick search shows that he has tested Crataegus. I just have to sit down with his code index and decode his comments. Thanks for the heads up on Dirr and Heuser, Tim. I'm really not anxious to use acid. I did not do well in highschool chemistry. I still have periodic flashes in my memory. Regards, Mike
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Post by ottawagardener on Feb 10, 2012 8:08:56 GMT -5
Has anyone tried a germination bucket outside in winter? Bucket with drainage holes filled with sand and seeds (slightly easier with large seed obviously) buried in soil during winter. I did but got limited success trying to germinate prunus species.
"Periodic memories" ahahah.
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Post by steev on Feb 10, 2012 11:45:02 GMT -5
If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.
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Post by 12540dumont on Feb 10, 2012 12:50:14 GMT -5
Mike, You know the kit that JL sells is really helpful, it has everything but the safety glasses. Let us know how it goes. I have persimmons languishing in the fridge sorting out their need for cold issues. I'm going to try them out in March.
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Post by Walk on Feb 10, 2012 16:03:42 GMT -5
Many years ago, we worked in the native plant seed business. Most of the species would germinate after cold, moist stratification in sand. For species that need abrasion to germinate, we had a tray with a piece of sandpaper lining the bottom and used a scrap of lumber to rub the seeds around on it. Mostly we tried to mimic the natural conditions by planting in fall or at time of seed harvest. If seeds are normally spread by birds, they may need the abrasion to mimic a bird's gizzard. For those that get swallowed by animals and pooped out, an acid may do the trick.
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Post by MikeH on Feb 15, 2012 8:01:44 GMT -5
Re; Norman Deno, he says that GA-3 had no affect. Assuming that I've interpreted his code correctly, for C. crus-galli, he got a 55% germination rate using 3 months at 40˚F, three months at 70˚F, and germination at 40˚F. For C. monogyna, he got a 70% germination rate using 3 months at 40˚F, three months at 70˚F, 3 months at 40˚F and germination at 70˚F. He didn't test C. laevigata or C. phaenopyrum. He goes on to say that longer and shorter cycles should be investigated. Although working with different species, this study got 37-51% germination using warm stratification for 60 to 120 days followed by cold stratification for 120 days. An acid soak either had no affect or caused the seeds to rot in germination. This study for C. monogyna got +90% germination results with 16 weeks at 20-30°C followed by 14–18 weeks at 3°C. Using sulphuric acid reduced germination by at least half. For C. monogyna, one study gets 70% results with cold/ warm/cold and another gets +90% results with warm/cold. Since I put the seeds in the fridge when I got them, it looks like I'm using the cold/warm/cold approach although I'll try some germination after cold/warm while putting some seeds through the second cold cycle. I think I'll also try nicking the casing with a pair of nail clippers and then using GA-3. I've got about 40 seeds of each species so I have a bit of room to try different approaches. All I need is one seed of each to germinate and then I have an infinite supply of soft and hardwood to try to produce more trees.
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Post by oxbowfarm on Feb 15, 2012 8:53:46 GMT -5
All I need is one seed of each to germinate and then I have an infinite supply of soft and hardwood to try to produce more trees. Mike, I have no personal experience with this, but according to Dirr cuttings are almost never successful with Crataegus. YMMV
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Post by MikeH on Feb 15, 2012 9:44:10 GMT -5
All I need is one seed of each to germinate and then I have an infinite supply of soft and hardwood to try to produce more trees. Mike, I have no personal experience with this, but according to Dirr cuttings are almost never successful with Crataegus. YMMV Tim, Yabbut with an infinite supply I can try for that "almost" window. ;D Sometimes you get lucky. BTW, I just ordered Dirr from www.bookdepository.co.uk/. With free shipping, it was the best deal available to me in Canada. Regards, Mike
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Post by MikeH on Feb 22, 2012 19:03:48 GMT -5
Tim,
My copy of Dirr arrived today. It's a great book. Thanks again for the heads up.
Regards, Mike
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