My goal is to honor God through my labors with land and family.
Joined: Mar 2009 Gender: Female Posts: 946 Location: Zone 8-Coastal North Carolina
Nuts for Me! A VERY rare find! « Thread Started on Nov 4, 2009, 12:12pm »
I'm on computer vacation trying to get caught up with stuff of late. But a few minutes ago Mike came in with pure gold in my estimation.
A handful of chestnuts from a tree that survived the blight! WHOPEE! ::dancy dancy dancy:: YES! SCORE! WAHOO NELLY! ::pant pant pant::
OK, so like, I can't tell you if this is an American or a Chinquapin chestnut and judging from the size of the nuts, they could be either. Mike will be taking me to visit the tree later on and I'll take some pics and BEG LIKE A DOG for more seed. At the moment I have 22. SO, iffn ya'll want some pure American gold (assuming I'm right of course), let me know how many seed you would like as well as that you want them. I'll do my best to get enough for everyone to have as many as they want. I'm hoping for 24 for myself, but from what I hear, there may be plenty for all. If there isn't, I'll share what I've got.
Jo - A developing farmer based on Bible teachings. Diversity, research, and chemical independence are key. Our top soil is about 12 to 18 inches of depleted sandy loam. Under that is a layer of light colored clay. Our sons will soon have more information as they learn to dig deeper and deeper holes. www.TrulyThankful.typepad.com
plantsnobin Karen Homegrown Seed Development and Project Coordinator Hip-Gnosis Seed Development Staff member is offline
Joined: Jul 2007 Gender: Female Posts: 1,128 Location: southern IN
Re: Nuts for Me! A VERY rare find! « Reply #1 on Nov 4, 2009, 1:18pm »
Will you be able to key it out as american rather than chinese or chinese/american hybrid? Not trying to rain on your parade at all, but usually american chestnuts will regrow from the roots after the blight, but don't usually live long enough to produce nuts again. Even if it is a tree growing in the woods, it could be planted by squirrels from a cultivated tree. I have found chestnuts in an area at least 1/4 mile from the nearest tree, stashed by the critters. If it turns out that you do in fact have a straight american, you should contact a nutgrowers association, as they would be interested. They are pretty close to releasing trees that are backcrossed to produce a high percentage of american blood that is resistent to the blight. I hope you will be able to obtain scion material, you could get a good jumpstart on an orchard for very little money. Good luck, and I hope it does key out.
http://padgettsperennials.blogspot.com www.picasaweb.google.com/plantsnobin Ave last frost May 10, first frost Oct. Generally no snow cover in winter, hot & very humid summers. Don't eat greens. Or Brussels sprouts, or any of that other healthy stuff. Strawberries=pure paradise. Live on 2 acres, daughter next door has 3 acres, and family farm across highway is 196 acres, mostly in hay.
grungy Homegrown Seed Development and Project Coordinator member is offline
grungy'sgarden.blogspot.com - small acreage, elevation 800 M.,zones 5b/6a Canadian - 6b/7a USA. lake bottom soil silty sand and rocks with added humus, raised beds approximate 3500 square feet,
plantsnobin Karen Homegrown Seed Development and Project Coordinator Hip-Gnosis Seed Development Staff member is offline
Joined: Jul 2007 Gender: Female Posts: 1,128 Location: southern IN
Re: Nuts for Me! A VERY rare find! « Reply #3 on Nov 4, 2009, 2:29pm »
This might help in ID
NORTHERN NUT GROWERS ASSOCIATION, INC.
IDENTIFICATION OF AMERICAN CHESTNUT TREES
by Sandra L. Anagnostakis, Phillip Gordon, and Fred V. Hebard
How to distinguish American chestnut trees from other chestnuts within the original native range, with information on other chestnut species.
Introduction
Chestnuts have been cultivated for nuts and wood for thousands of years. The name Castanea is believed to come from Kastanea, a city in Pontus, Turkey. European chestnuts (Castanea sativa) probably originated in Southern Russia in the Caucasus mountains, between the Black and the Caspian Seas. They were planted throughout the Roman Empire, and now grow wild in Italy, France, Spain, and Greece. Chestnuts are also important in Asia, where there are four native species (Castanea mollissima, C. Henryi, C. seguinii, and C. crenata).
In North America, pollen records from the latest interglacial period show that the American chestnut tree, Castanea dentata, was present on Long Island 30,000 to 50,000 years ago. American chestnut trees were once found all along the Appalachian mountain range, from Portland, Maine to northern Georgia. Within this area it grew in mixed, hardwood forests, usually on high, sandy land, gravel ridges, or mountain slopes that were wholly, or nearly free from limestone. In the last 150 years it has been planted outside its range in favorable spots (Michigan, Wisconsin) where it has become a forest tree, protected from chestnut blight disease by geography until only recently. American chinquapins, Castanea pumila, share the southern part of the range with American chestnut from Pennsylvania south.
Description
Chestnuts are deciduous trees with short-stemmed, prominently veined, oblong leaves that have course to fine pointed marginal teeth or bristles. Male (staminate) flowers are formed in the axils of successive or alternate leaves in early June, in groups of cylindrical catkins (aments) as long as or longer than the leaves. Female (pistillate) flowers form later and on younger wood, at the base of short catkins. The nuts develop in prickly husks called burs (with one r), which open when the nuts are mature (usually mid-September to mid-October).
There are seven species identified by taxonomists, and the following key is intended to separate them.
Leaves to be examined should be fully expanded, from parts of the tree exposed to full sun, and not from within 6 inches of flowers.
Group I
Leaves hairless, or with only a few, short hairs on the mid-vein on the lower surface.
A. Nuts usually 1 to 3 per bur (but sometimes as many as 7 to 10), leaf margins deeply indented.
1. Twigs smooth, lower surface of fully expanded leaves with few glands, leaves 5 to 10 inches long.
Castanea dentata (Marshall) Borkhausen American chestnut
Before ink disease and chestnut blight disease were brought into the US, this was a tree 60 to 80 (occasionally 100) feet tall. Now mature trees are uncommon within the native range, and the species is usually found as a shrubby cluster of sprouts 3 to 15 feet tall, or as an understory tree 15 to 60 feet tall. The twigs are chestnut brown, the buds are smooth and brown and asymmetrically bullet-shaped, usually askew on the twig. Leaves are oblong, pointed at the tip, and acute at the base where they join the petioles (i.e., are canoe shaped), with coarsely dentate (toothed) margins. Mature leaves are light green and paper-thin.
The most striking difference between American chestnut trees and the other species is their slender, upright growth, and their thinner, smoother leaves, which are more pendent in position. The nuts are generally smaller than all other chestnuts, except chinquapins, and are sweeter.
2. Twigs with short, simple hairs, lower surface of fully expanded leaves densely covered with glands, leaves 2 to 4 inches long.
Castanea seguinii Dode Dwarf Chinese chestnut
This species is a shrub to a small tree in China, but is not very winter-hardy in Connecticut. It seems to have little resistance to chestnut blight disease. Flowers form early in the spring and continue to form through the growing season, until killed by the first frost. Hybrids are valuable for use as dwarfing rootstocks, and for their ever-flowering characteristic.
B. Nuts usually one per bur, leaf margins with bristle-like teeth, leaves shaped like willow leaves, and 3 to 6 inches long.
Castanea Henryi (Skan) Rehder and Wilson Chinese chinquapin
I know of only one mature Henry chestnut in Connecticut, and this tree (in our Plantation) is not reliably winter-hardy and not very resistant to chestnut blight. Trees in western Georgia have little blight and appear to resist Oriental Gall Wasp. Reports from China suggest that the tree is used for timber in that country.
Group II
Leaves hairy on the lower surface, and nuts usually 1-3 per bur.
A. Twigs thick and coarse, brown and downy at first, and then becoming smooth, leaves 5 to 10 inches long with long hairs on veins of both the lower and upper surfaces.
Castanea sativa Miller European chestnut
These trees were extensively planted in North America, starting in 1773 (Thomas Jefferson). The commercial nuts of France and Italy are cultivars called 'Marrone' that are probably European X Asian hybrids. 'Marrone' have stellate hairs on the lower surface of the leaves, and are male sterile. They were selected by Monks in what is now Turkey in the 1100's. 'Marrone' are usually apple-like, orchard trees, grafted on European rootstocks, and their nuts are large.
Trees of the pure species are tall and straight like American chestnut trees. Leaves are usually not acute where they join the petiole, and have no stellate hairs. Nuts of the pure species are about the size of American chestnuts. Both types of trees are very susceptible to chestnut blight, and are usually not very winter-hardy. There were many hybrids of C. sativa X C. dentata planted in the US in the last century, including the popular cultivar 'Paragon'.
B. Twigs greenish brown and downy, leaves coarsely serrate with dense or sparse stellate hairs on the lower surface, leaves usually thick and leathery.
Castanea mollissima Blume Chinese chestnut
Both orchard and timber trees have been extensively planted in North America since about 1915. Nuts are small to large, and often quite sweet. Chinese chestnut trees range in resistance to chestnut blight from very susceptible (as susceptible as American chestnut trees) to very resistant. Many cultivars are very cold tolerant.
C. Twigs delicate, dark, reddish brown, and downy, becoming smooth as they mature, leaves with dense or sparse stellate hairs on the lower surface, leaf margins with bristle-like projections instead of deeply cut teeth.
Castanea crenata Siebold and Zuccarini Japanese chestnut
The trees extensively planted in North America, since 1876, were predominately orchard trees. They are usually very resistant to chestnut blight and ink disease, and some cultivars have been selected for their resistance to Oriental Chestnut Gall Wasp. The nuts are medium to very large, and often bitter when fresh.
Group III
Leaves densely hairy on the lower surface, and nuts always single in the burs.
Castanea pumila (Linnaeus) Miller var. pumila Allegheny chinquapin var. ozarkensis (Ashe) Tucker Ozark chinquapin Chinquapins can be small, multi-stemmed shrubs, or single-stemmed trees 60 feet tall. The taxonomy of the group is still in flux, but other types described in the older literature include C. ashei, C. alnifolia, and C. floridana. They are all very susceptible to chestnut blight disease, but Allegheny chinquapins have been reported to be resistant to the Oriental Chestnut Gall Wasp.
Charles and Lina Rhora Wainfleet, Ontario, Canada LOS 1VO
Sandra L. Anagnostakis is President of NNGA and a researcher specializing in Chestnuts at The Connecticut Agricultural Experiment Station. She can be reached at Sandra.Anagnostakis@ct.gov
NNGA Feature Article of the Month Page Articles are selected and approved by Tom Molnar, Sec'y of NNGA. url: http://www.northernnutgrowers.org/feature1.htm Last updated: 7/16/09 Contact Mr. Tucker Hill for questions on nuts and nut trees at tuckerh@epix.net Contact web master: Marsha Henkin at icomserve@aol.com for problems with or questions about the operation of this site.
http://padgettsperennials.blogspot.com www.picasaweb.google.com/plantsnobin Ave last frost May 10, first frost Oct. Generally no snow cover in winter, hot & very humid summers. Don't eat greens. Or Brussels sprouts, or any of that other healthy stuff. Strawberries=pure paradise. Live on 2 acres, daughter next door has 3 acres, and family farm across highway is 196 acres, mostly in hay.
My goal is to honor God through my labors with land and family.
Joined: Mar 2009 Gender: Female Posts: 946 Location: Zone 8-Coastal North Carolina
Re: Nuts for Me! A VERY rare find! « Reply #4 on Nov 4, 2009, 7:54pm »
Got ya covered Val! HOLY COW KAREN! ::laughing:: You are awesome. I'm REALLY hoping it's a chinquapin to be honest. But either way... The story of the tree as I know it at this moment is that it was growing BEFORE the blight hit. How true is that? Beats me, but it's possible. The house where Mike grew up was one of the apricot orchards mentioned in Jack London's "White Fang". There were still 2 trees living when we married. The last one died the winter of '03 or '04.
Regardless, when I get to see the tree I'll use your data to ID it and I'll try to get photos and possibly some other samples depending on what I read from your links. Speaking of which, I'll be researching how to collect scion wood and what to do with it when I have.
Jo - A developing farmer based on Bible teachings. Diversity, research, and chemical independence are key. Our top soil is about 12 to 18 inches of depleted sandy loam. Under that is a layer of light colored clay. Our sons will soon have more information as they learn to dig deeper and deeper holes. www.TrulyThankful.typepad.com
My goal is to honor God through my labors with land and family.
Joined: Mar 2009 Gender: Female Posts: 946 Location: Zone 8-Coastal North Carolina
Re: Nuts for Me! A VERY rare find! « Reply #6 on Nov 5, 2009, 7:39am »
::laughing::
With a screen name of "Castanea" you are advertising yourself as an expert on nuts! I'm gonna try to get photos up here. Just can't tell you when exactly. I'll PM you when I do because if it's true that this tree survived the blight, I'm thinking that it will be due to some very valuable genetic coding.
Incidentally, it has been a long held desire of mine to facilitate the re-establishment of the American and Chinquapin chestnuts. I've tried contacting a few of the organizations claiming to be of the same mind without much success. Sending 2 or 3 nuts to a person like me is not in line with how they think the process should proceed. Anyhow, I might be able to help them now.
Jo - A developing farmer based on Bible teachings. Diversity, research, and chemical independence are key. Our top soil is about 12 to 18 inches of depleted sandy loam. Under that is a layer of light colored clay. Our sons will soon have more information as they learn to dig deeper and deeper holes. www.TrulyThankful.typepad.com
plantsnobin Karen Homegrown Seed Development and Project Coordinator Hip-Gnosis Seed Development Staff member is offline
Joined: Jul 2007 Gender: Female Posts: 1,128 Location: southern IN
Re: Nuts for Me! A VERY rare find! « Reply #8 on Nov 5, 2009, 4:51pm »
I may be wrong about this, but as I understood it, the west coast doesn't have a problem with chestnut blight? I could be reading old information though. Castanea, can you tell us about this?
http://padgettsperennials.blogspot.com www.picasaweb.google.com/plantsnobin Ave last frost May 10, first frost Oct. Generally no snow cover in winter, hot & very humid summers. Don't eat greens. Or Brussels sprouts, or any of that other healthy stuff. Strawberries=pure paradise. Live on 2 acres, daughter next door has 3 acres, and family farm across highway is 196 acres, mostly in hay.
I may be wrong about this, but as I understood it, the west coast doesn't have a problem with chestnut blight? I could be reading old information though. Castanea, can you tell us about this?
Other than one orchard outside of Stockton, CA, there is no chestnut blight on the west coast. There are many chestnut trees of different varieties out here, but the ones with the best tasting nuts are usually the American x European hybrids, American x Japanese hybrids or European x Japanese hybrids.
My goal is to honor God through my labors with land and family.
Joined: Mar 2009 Gender: Female Posts: 946 Location: Zone 8-Coastal North Carolina
Re: Nuts for Me! A VERY rare find! « Reply #10 on Nov 6, 2009, 2:33pm »
I got to visit the tree today. Went bearing a gift of 9 pieces of my best, homemade, Toasted Almond Fudge. I was rewarded with a bit more history which goes like this:
"A very dear friend of mine; who lived in Galax, Virginia; brought me this tree when it was just a few inches high. That was about 10 to 15 years ago."
Galax Virginia is on the Southern border of the state, about 50 miles north of Mount Airy and about 50 mile east of the Blue Ridge Mountains.
I've read the ID info several times through now. So MAYBE I'm getting this correct. I don't know when I'll get around to getting photos up. I have eliminated Group II and group II as the leaves are not hairy and we observed an average of 3 to 4 nuts per bur. I don't believe it's a Seguinii Dode Dwarf Chinese either because the leaves are not "willow like" and they run about 5" to 7".
I think it is probably Dentata, Borkhausen American OR; possibly, Henry and Chinese Chinquapin. I can't rule out the Henry because there is not enough information on it in the ID thingy.
The tree is single trunk and maybe 20' to 30' tall? I'll have to get Mike to make this guess. He's out playing with oak leaves at the moment so that will have to wait for now. The nuts are not shaped like the nuts I've seen in the stores. They are sort of wrinkly. ..... oooooK well now, I've just cut a "nut" open and it SURE isn't what I was expecting! They are all fuzzy inside? Does this sound right to you? The shells are really soft, do they need to cure? Or have I gotten myself all excited over an incorrect ID?
AH! I may have the answer though it isn't a good one... The nuts are ALL infertile? In which case, can we "make" them fertile by planting more trees grown from scions? We did find and dig a tiny sapling about 6" tall. I need to find out more Karen and Castanea! HELP!
Jo - A developing farmer based on Bible teachings. Diversity, research, and chemical independence are key. Our top soil is about 12 to 18 inches of depleted sandy loam. Under that is a layer of light colored clay. Our sons will soon have more information as they learn to dig deeper and deeper holes. www.TrulyThankful.typepad.com
My goal is to honor God through my labors with land and family.
Joined: Mar 2009 Gender: Female Posts: 946 Location: Zone 8-Coastal North Carolina
Re: Nuts for Me! A VERY rare find! « Reply #12 on Nov 15, 2009, 9:37pm »
This is a story still unfolding. Just Friday I got the news that there are more of these trees around, just not very many.
Castanea, I'm convinced that you are right on that this tree isn't all that rare, but they are very scarce in this area where they were at one time a major forest inhabitant. Also, I am really sorry, but I just don't have time to do photos. However, thanks to Karen's leads, I am certain that it is an American chestnut rather than any of the other types or crosses.
My Toasted Almond Fudge has won me friends and influenced people in this matter. The seeds I got are probably not viable though I'm sending Val and Bunkie some JUST in case. However, I am to be introduced to some other trees in the area. SO, as I understand from talking to some of the people from the chestnut foundation, I should be able to collect scion material now, rootstock material in January/February, and ASSUMING (dangerous, yes, I realize but appropriate at this moment) they are all from different "families" we should get some viable trees going.
Karen and Castanea, without your input I couldn't have gotten this far. Thank you so very much. Val and Bunkie, we will have chestnuts roasting on a open fire, chestnut paste filling in our sherry cakes. ;o)
Jo - A developing farmer based on Bible teachings. Diversity, research, and chemical independence are key. Our top soil is about 12 to 18 inches of depleted sandy loam. Under that is a layer of light colored clay. Our sons will soon have more information as they learn to dig deeper and deeper holes. www.TrulyThankful.typepad.com
grungy Homegrown Seed Development and Project Coordinator member is offline
grungy'sgarden.blogspot.com - small acreage, elevation 800 M.,zones 5b/6a Canadian - 6b/7a USA. lake bottom soil silty sand and rocks with added humus, raised beds approximate 3500 square feet,
My goal is to honor God through my labors with land and family.
Joined: Mar 2009 Gender: Female Posts: 946 Location: Zone 8-Coastal North Carolina
Re: Nuts for Me! A VERY rare find! « Reply #14 on Nov 16, 2009, 7:53am »
::laughing:: I take it you approve of sherry cakes with chestnut paste filling? Bet if I frosted it with coffee buttercream and enrobed the entire thing with a dark chocolate glaze you would bring Dan and move in!?!? ;o)
Karen made mention of a HomeGrown Goodness commune. I know where we can get 2,000 + acres and there is a brand new stove in the kitchen....
Jo - A developing farmer based on Bible teachings. Diversity, research, and chemical independence are key. Our top soil is about 12 to 18 inches of depleted sandy loam. Under that is a layer of light colored clay. Our sons will soon have more information as they learn to dig deeper and deeper holes. www.TrulyThankful.typepad.com
![[Home]](http://s1.images.proboards.com/menu/home.gif)
![[Help]](http://s1.images.proboards.com/menu/help.gif)
![[Search]](http://s1.images.proboards.com/menu/search.gif)
![[Login]](http://s1.images.proboards.com/menu/login.gif)
![[Register]](http://s1.images.proboards.com/menu/register.gif)
![[Search This Thread]](http://s1.images.proboards.com/search2.gif)
![[Send Topic To Friend]](http://s1.images.proboards.com/buttons/sendtopic.gif)
![[Print]](http://s1.images.proboards.com/buttons/print.gif)
Author
![[avatar]](http://trulythankful.typepad.com/photos/june_2009/6-0901.jpg)
![[homepage]](http://s1.images.proboards.com/buttons/www_sm.gif)
Logged
![[avatar]](http://lh4.ggpht.com/_aKlVwuyZNvk/SjXts1E7GjI/AAAAAAAAGYE/_R6QkyAQdp8/s128/Avatar%202009_06140081.JPG){kind=avatar}
I'm gonna try to get photos up here. Just can't tell you when exactly. I'll PM you when I do because if it's true that this tree survived the blight, I'm thinking that it will be due to some very valuable genetic coding.
I don't know when I'll get around to getting photos up. I have eliminated Group II and group II as the leaves are not hairy and we observed an average of 3 to 4 nuts per bur. I don't believe it's a Seguinii Dode Dwarf Chinese either because the leaves are not "willow like" and they run about 5" to 7".
oooooK well now, I've just cut a "nut" open and it SURE isn't what I was expecting! They are all fuzzy inside? Does this sound right to you? The shells are really soft, do they need to cure? Or have I gotten myself all excited over an incorrect ID? 