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Post by flowerpower on Oct 30, 2008 6:19:54 GMT -5
"A team from the John Innes Centre, Norwich, created the tomatoes by incorporating genes from the snapdragon flower, which is high in anthocyanin" I thought it was Red maters that had all the health benefits. Oh, wait, that was last yr. lol Is the snapdragon in any way related to a tomato? I just think its a little creepy. Sometimes I could use 8 arms. Where do I sign up for the Octopus gene?
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Post by PatrickW on Oct 30, 2008 6:25:36 GMT -5
As far as I know, except for Syngenta's Kumato ( www.kumato.eu ), purple tomatoes are not sold in Europe. Notice according to their web page, the Kumato is only available in Spain, France, Belgium and Switzerland. The seeds are produced in Holland, but it's not sold here! Syngenta is very much trying to cultivate a 'cult' following of their tomato, limiting it's availability and promoting rumors of it's orgin. They never sell the seeds, only the tomatoes. Most Europeans have never seen or tasted this, or any other purple tomato. I have a plot in a community garden with about 100 other plots, and as far as I know I was the only one who grew purple or any other heirloom tomatoes this year. Other gardeners were very impressed, because no one seemed to have ever seen them before. They all go the the garden center and buy packets of commercial F1s, mostly red, yellow and orange tomatoes, because they don't know any alternatives exist. Every country has lists of registered varieties, and if a particular variety is not on that list, it's illegal to sell. It's illegal to sell in supermarkets. It's illegal to sell in vegetable markets. It's even illegal to sell the seeds to gardeners to grow their own. It's also illegal for gardeners to save and give away their seeds to others, as giving away is considered the same as selling. There are only very limited circumstances where a farmer is allowed to save and regrow their own seeds, and only registered varieties. These lists of registered varieties are mostly modern F1 varieties, but there are a few older and OP varieties too. If you create your own vegetable variety, it will not be on any of these lists, and it will be illegal too. Every country has it's own laws, and the situation is a little different in some places. For example Sweden has an exemption for small packets of seeds. Some countries have gene banks that make local heirloom varieties available. I recently learned that there's a customs exemption for travellers coming into the EU of 5 packets of unregistered seeds. That's right, you can bring in 200 cigarettes, 1 liter of spirits and 5 packets of vegetable seeds! If you didn't know about these laws, you're not alone. Most Europeans don't know about them either. In fact many Europeans think these kinds of rules are for their safety, when in fact they are to protect the interests of the seed companies. Unregistered varieties simply represent unfair competition for the larger seed companies. No one goes to jail over these laws, and no one who breaks the laws in small non-commercial ways is even harassed. On the other hand it's almost impossible to operate a seed company here selling unregistered varieties, and any farmer caught selling or growing unregistered varieties will probably lose their subsidies and be fined. The fact these laws exist have all but destroyed the culture of seed saving and plant breeding, and many European heirloom varieties are simply no longer available here. Consider helping out with my seed network, as a couple of you already said you would: www.patnsteph.net/weblog/?p=540By the way these same lists of registered varieties are largely what is protecting European consumers from GM varieties, at least directly, because GMOs are still allowed to be fed to livestock. There are only a couple of GM varieties on seed registration lists, and they are still not widely distributed. On the whole, Europeans are very opposed to GMOs. It raises interesting questions about this new purple GM tomato, like bunkie said! Are they trying to get people interested in eating and buying it? Are they trying to scare people off of purple tomatoes, so they won't want the OP varieties? Is it intended for sale only outside the EU? On the subject of roundup resistance spreading to wild relatives of crops, does anyone know of other mechanisms for this besides cross pollination? For example, increased use of roundup will almost certainly cause resistant weed varieties to occur. It's also been documented that when GM food varieties are consumed, the antibiotic resistance marker gene can pass to the gut bacteria, because it's very promiscuous with it's DNA. Does anyone have any idea if something similar can happen to cause the roundup resistance to pass to unrelated species?
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Post by orflo on Oct 30, 2008 7:09:15 GMT -5
What's the use of creating a GM plant? Can it be useful? Or is it just a method of speeding up breeding things? Or... Well, I am completely opposed to this GM business, because that's what it is, a big business. As far as I know, no GM created food plant has out-produced , or has a better taste compared to traditional or hybrid varieties. If GM crops would appear massively on the market, we will loose (again) not only a whole bunch of traditional varieties (and we're just trying to save them), and, also, generations of craftsmanship, breeding varieties (no more Rebsies pea breeding project... ). The already poorly supplied markets and supermarkets will sell even a more restricted amount of vegetables, with all possible health risks. Who will want to create a GM parsnip, beetroot, or...? No one, the GM development is that expensive that only the most popular vegetables will be available, farmers will have to concentrate on producing these GM crops, and won't offer anything else... And there's off course the ethical question: every seed will be in the hands of some big companies, no one will be able to save seed (or be prohibited to do so), because of the companies rules. Production quotes are high, and if you can't coop with this, farmers will get problems, serious problems. I forgot the exact numbers, but lots of farmers in Brazil, Argentina,.. commit suicide because they can't compete with other farmers (and these numbers concern the GM soybean growing farmers). And a whole bunch of other ethical things.. Another thing is the experimental stage: things are indeed controlled thoroughly in labs, I'm convinced they do that...Rumours are spread that some independent reports concerning health risks have vanished, but that's just a rumour. What isn't a rumour is the invasion of pigweed in the South of the US, right in the middle of a round-up GM crop. That's something labs cannot test, evenso other possible risks. I do understand the reaction Michel had: if something is forbidden, I would just be willing to do it, I have the same mentality ;D. But be aware there's a threat in that mentality: you can focus too much on the forbidden things, and you may not see there's another threat silently sneeking in from behind your back, so keep your eyes wide open!!!
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Post by PapaVic on Oct 30, 2008 7:47:50 GMT -5
For What It's Worth ...
There's somethin' happenin' here What it is ain't exactly clear There's a man with a gun, over there Tellin' me I got to beware
I think it's time we Stop, hey, what's that sound? Everybody look. What's goin' down?
There's battle lines bein' drawn Nobody's right if everybody's wrong Young people speakin' their minds, once again Gettin' so much resistance from behind
It's time we Stop, hey, what's that sound? Everybody look. What's goin' down?
What a field day for the heat A thousand people standin' out in the street Singin' songs and carryin' their signs They're mostly sayin', "hooray for our side"
It's time we Stop, hey, what's that sound? Everybody look. What's goin' down?
I hear ya
Paranoia strikes deep Into your life it will creep It starts when you're always afraid Step out of line, the man come and take you away
Now then Stop, hey, what's that sound? You got to stop and take a look around Now, now Stop, hey, what's that sound? We got to stop and take a look around
We got to Stop, hey, what's that sound? Look what's goin' down?
Crosby, Stills, Nash
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Post by orflo on Oct 30, 2008 8:00:02 GMT -5
In the Middle-ages furniture makers made some amazingly fine furniture, made with the knowledge they had and was built up for centuries and centuries. Nowadays, some of this furniture can't be rebuild because part of the knowledge had disappeared. Yes, I am afraid of loosing part of history that has been created over thousands of years, I won't accept without criticism everything that's new....People did accept softenon once...And I considerer myself as a traditionalist, surely, but with an open mind, otherwise I wouldn't be eating things that are really not common.. The difference between the Buffalo Springfield lyrics and this situation is: Buffalo S. was part of a generation opposed to big business, (what ever happened to this mentality?), now some people seem to be favouring this business...
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Post by canadamike on Oct 30, 2008 8:16:44 GMT -5
It's hard to refute thins like taht, Frank, cause they are true. But we have left the realm of science. It's a discussion on something else. It didn't need gmo to happen. Genetic manipulation bring promises to a lot of sick people. That's the science part.
What we do with it is something else. We are able to kill this planet without GMO, we have proved it eloquently. And we are able to forget about old crafstmanship without it too, that also has been proven.
I hate all the big business for the immoral and wild neo-con capitalism values they bring with themselves.
They don't need GMO to be full of shit. But that's not a debate about science anymore...
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Post by orflo on Oct 30, 2008 8:31:10 GMT -5
You're right there, Michel, I took a bit of a side road... I won't go on nagging here ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Post by bunkie on Oct 30, 2008 13:50:15 GMT -5
also, with these GM toms, one cannot save seed, right? the plants are sterile? that's gonna be expensive for the farmers. and if the sterile pollen attaches itself to other plants, will that make them sterile also? and will this affect the bees? Since any work on a terminator gene was terminated ages ago, none of the above applies. Martin ah, but if they're a hybrid of sorts, one still cannot save the seed, which does make it more expensive for the farmer. Bunkie, chill out a bit. Have you been subjected to disinformation, are your spreading disinformation, or are you just asking questions without reading and digesting information? hey papav, you chill...or are you just being funny? didn;t you see all my question marks? of course i was asking questions. and no, i am not spreading disinformation. what's your problem??? sure... the way it was presented on the nightly news, yeah, i know, was that it will be out very soon at a grocery near you. maybe so papv, but perhaps there's possibilities of other ways, that's all i was suggesting. what a ridiculous question. i know this thing isn't radioactive. you know what 'assuming' does???! if you'd read what i said, i meant secure in the fact of a lengthy testing time to prevent the 'surprizes' other drugs, etc... have given us. you're quoting me out of context. that is not disinformation. patrick w posted it in the very first post on this here thread...don't you read the posts in full? the ones that look just like it....and, btw, it's a 'purple' not blueberry in color! all reasons previously stated above... maybe in your neck of the woods! thanks for the hug! excellent point orflo anout the big businesses and this GM stuff.
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Post by canadamike on Oct 30, 2008 14:44:04 GMT -5
Let's chill buddies. We're supposed to be here to have fun...
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Post by PapaVic on Oct 30, 2008 15:55:28 GMT -5
I don't think it's a hybrid in the sense that there are two parents and the F1 is heterozygoteous ... unless they crossed two parent lines that both previously had been GM'd. But to look at the plant, it looks like a Tiny Tim with purple berries.
With regard to disinformation, well ... refer to "it's a hybrid of sorts ... and you can't save the seeds." Why not?
With regard to releasing GMOs without sufficient research on side effects, etc., well ... there are protocol and there are rules. In some cases, there are laws. Please provide proof that the GM tomato has been or will be released prior to the required testing period. Otherwise, your concern is premature.
With regard to "other ways" to do GM ... where's the proof that the way that's been employed for this particular tomato has resulted in hazards? If there is no proof, then there is no reason to insinuate there is a bio hazard potential.
Regardless of what Patrick said, there are "purple" tomatoes originating in Europe ... if by "purple" you mean the open pollinated types I named and many others that some of you think of as "heirlooms." But then it's apparent you are confusing purple/black tomatoes like Black Krim, Cherokee Purple, etc., with OSU Blue and this new dealie. They aren't even remotely similar with regard to what's causing their "purple" or "blueberry" or "snapdragon" or whatever coloration.
If people are afraid of buying "heirloom" tomatoes because they confuse them with GM tomatoes, then that's a problem of either ignorance or disinformation. Either one could be fixed by education and experience.
And I hope this garden site doesn't turn into another Blather Creek political forum with a bunch of nincompoopy discussions, fear mongering, and puerile conspiracy theories.
Bill
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Post by grungy on Oct 30, 2008 16:29:59 GMT -5
STANDS ON SOAP BOX (Alan's rules) Bill, I don't want a "political" debate - but what protocols, rules, and laws. You mean like when the GMO rice was released? Oh sorry I forgot, it was released, caught in transit, and then a whole lot of it had to be destroyed. If everyone followed the rules, regulations and protocols, perhaps there wouldn't be the "concern" that several people have expressed. And as for the "proof", perhaps it maybe wise to err on the side of caution, rather than the blind - "If there is no proof, then there is no reason to insinuate there is a bio hazard potential."
Bill, just one quick question - why are you all for GMO's? STEPS DOWN FROM SOAP BOX
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Post by PapaVic on Oct 30, 2008 16:52:43 GMT -5
"... just one quick question - why are you all for GMO's?"
Grungy, I'm not. See, so many people draw false conclusions. I never said "I'm all for GMOs." And I don't see where I said enough to leave the impression that I'm "all for GMOs." We're talking about ONE TOMATO here. I guess it's just to much of an emotional issue to discuss rationally. So, forget it.
Bill
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Post by canadamike on Oct 30, 2008 16:58:54 GMT -5
I did not read he was for GMO. Nor am I, actually, but I refuse to be against them for the sake of being against, like if it was a DOGMA. That's how I interpreted his reaction. I might be wrong, mind you. The GM process can also be used in intra-specific creations, as an example, just speeding things up.
But I find myself defending them here, which really makes me VERY uncomfortable. What I really want to point out is I hate dogmatism.
I find enough reason to not like them while quietly drinking milk and eating cookies, not feeling I am part of a new dogmatic school of thinking.
One day, there will be a GMO that I will like, and it could be a cancer curing ''artificial''plant with the terminator gene so if pollen spreads it can't be a nuisance.
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Post by Alan on Oct 30, 2008 18:28:37 GMT -5
Here is my take on all of this:
I am currently and probably for the foreseeable future anti-GMO. My reasoning is thus; too much power in too few hands with too few independent tests searching for actual specific side effects of gene splicing, an art I might add that is not present whatsoever in the record of natural agricultural history as opposed to spontaneous crosses and man made crosses.
Now don't get me wrong, I understand there could be merits to this "fast food" version of plant breeding, I get that, but I also know that those who have the power to make such decisions very rarely have positive intentions in mind and instead have money regardless of consequence in mind. For example see any of the following, Monsanto, Big Pharma, Big Box Stores, Big Government.
The problem I have with this particular "creation" is that there is A. No sport in what was done.
By this I mean that it isn't like other natural sources of Un-monopolized, anthocyanin producing crops don't exist. See blueberries, purple carrots, purple flour, flint, and sweet corns, purple peas and so on, which brings me to part B.
B. A traditionally bred alternative already in the pipeline
In many ways I can see this hurting Jim Meyers research at OSU. I mean this guy has worked his butt off on the P-20 lines and here somebody just bypasses the work of one of the few remaining land grant schools doing actual plant breeding work without consideration for the novel and appreciable idea that Jim Meyers had. I'm sure the reason that so few land grant schools still exist with plant breeding and experimentation arms is due to the monopolization of agriculture by big business, most recently those dealing in GMO's and and big PHarma. Couple this with the fact that this new blue tomato will probably be PVP'ed and you've just signed the death warrant for the OSU project.
Now, the reason there is so much opposition by others to GMO's?
Probably because very little of any positive developments have come out of this technology since it was first implemented, probably because they have been lied to so many times by the big companies of the world about what is "safe" and "unsafe" that there is no reason to any longer trust these folks. It's the boy who cried wolf story if you will.
Bill, as far as Patrick saying there weren't any purple tomatoes in Europe, I believe he is referring to their scarcity in gardens and seed catalouges because of the EU's very strict seed laws and registration laws, meaning that they are indeed few and far between and only traded among very few circles of growers or in countries with lesser restrictions on small packets of seed. These laws were put into place ironically to supposedly keep GMO"s in check.
By the way, in the list of things that should be discussed amongst the free people of the world on gardening sights, I rank this very highly so the thread will remain open, however I would appreciate it if we can keep from making any personal attacks or be-littling one another, just respect each others opinion, as we all know a little history gone by will go a long way in the annals of the INTERNET in proving which ideas were right, which were wrong, and which were irrelevant all together.
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Post by canadamike on Oct 30, 2008 18:43:13 GMT -5
I am currently and probably for the foreseeable future anti-GMO. My reasoning is thus; too much power in too few hands with too few independent tests searching for actual specific side effects of gene splicing, an art I might add that is not present whatsoever in the record of natural agricultural history as opposed to spontaneous crosses and man made crosses. . I agree with you on this one Alan. And what I like is the premise of your writings, the first part of what I just quote. It introduces a dimension of doubt, totally eliminating dogmatism without lessening the argument against GMO. We've seen the devastating effect of dogmatism enough with a certain politician a whole planet is trying to forget.
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