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Post by templeton on May 28, 2017 18:13:55 GMT -5
Galina, what is the pattern of partial colouration? Is it the same on all plants, or are some dusted with purple, while others have seams and blotches? Recall purple pod needs A, Pur and Pu, all dominant.
Were your yellows purple flowered? If so they carried A, so your F1s would be AA. Questions then arise about Pur and Pu. In my experience, these can be variably expressed. I think it's Pur that has variable expression - would need to check the JIC database. I think Steve posted about checking for Pur by looking at the funiculis in the pod - the little stalk that connects the developng pea to the inner pod seam. I had a look at one of mine yesterday by chance - snipped it off by mistake - and there is a tiny bit of colour at the base of the thread.
Don't worry. In my early purple podded lines I got some half purples that went on to develop full purple in later generations. Not all, mind you so i still dont fully understand it. I'm surprised that all yours are half P. They do develop different colour as they age, and on different pods up the culm, so wait a while. T
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Post by keen101 (Biolumo / Andrew B.) on May 28, 2017 19:05:45 GMT -5
Let's assume the "worst" case scenario. Sugar Magnolia is a really good purple to work with, so you are pretty good there, as it should have AA PURPUR and PUPU. Let's assume that the yellow snow that you crossed it with had white flowers which would mean it was aa purpur pupu. Then that means all your F1's would be partially purple with a genome of Aa PURpur PUpu. If by chance your yellow mangetout peas actually had purple flowers then your actually a little better off with AA but would still probably have partially purple pods as i seem to remember joseph talking about needing a fully homozygous double doze of at least one of the purple genes PUR or PU but ideally both to get super good purple coverage.
So basically you probably would have gotten splotchy purple pods in the F1 no matter what. But that's okay, just keep growing them out. There is still a good chance you will get some in the F2's and certainly in the F3's i would think. Just watch for the best coloured pods in the F2 as they probably are homozygous for at least PUR or PU or both.
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Post by galina on May 29, 2017 4:52:38 GMT -5
Galina, what is the pattern of partial colouration? Is it the same on all plants, or are some dusted with purple, while others have seams and blotches? Recall purple pod needs A, Pur and Pu, all dominant. Were your yellows purple flowered? If so they carried A, so your F1s would be AA. Questions then arise about Pur and Pu. In my experience, these can be variably expressed. I think it's Pur that has variable expression - would need to check the JIC database. I think Steve posted about checking for Pur by looking at the funiculis in the pod - the little stalk that connects the developng pea to the inner pod seam. I had a look at one of mine yesterday by chance - snipped it off by mistake - and there is a tiny bit of colour at the base of the thread. Don't worry. In my early purple podded lines I got some half purples that went on to develop full purple in later generations. Not all, mind you so i still dont fully understand it. I'm surprised that all yours are half P. They do develop different colour as they age, and on different pods up the culm, so wait a while. T Thank you templeton, it is a little difficult to tell on the second cross, as there is barely a hint of purple edging on the tiny pods, but the first one is definitely blocky. Green blotchy centre with purple edging. We are a long way off looking at funiculi at this stage where the first pods have only just set. Yes Court Estate Gold is my large yellow mangetout/snow pea and Charlie's Goldsnap is the snap I developed from CEG and Amish Snap. Both are purple flowered. Yes I will wait a while, but the pods on the cross with the mangetout will not develop to full purple, the others might. I will know more in a day or two. I needed a bit of encouragement not to scratch the new crosses. Thank you. Will make note of funiculi when the time comes and take it to the F2 generation. Starting to run out of purple podded options that aren't shellers.
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Post by galina on May 29, 2017 5:10:58 GMT -5
Let's assume the "worst" case scenario. Sugar Magnolia is a really good purple to work with, so you are pretty good there, as it should have AA PURPUR and PUPU. Let's assume that the yellow snow that you crossed it with had white flowers which would mean it was aa purpur pupu. Then that means all your F1's would be partially purple with a genome of Aa PURpur PUpu. If by chance your yellow mangetout peas actually had purple flowers then your actually a little better off with AA but would still probably have partially purple pods as i seem to remember joseph talking about needing a fully homozygous double doze of at least one of the purple genes PUR or PU but ideally both to get super good purple coverage. So basically you probably would have gotten splotchy purple pods in the F1 no matter what. But that's okay, just keep growing them out. There is still a good chance you will get some in the F2's and certainly in the F3's i would think. Just watch for the best coloured pods in the F2 as they probably are homozygous for at least PUR or PU or both. Thank you keen101 (Biolumo / Andrew B.) and I appreciate your post for unscrambling this for me. Both yellows are purple flowered. AA PUR PUR PU PU x AA pur pur pu pu should be AA Pur pur Pu pu in the F1. There ought to be both dominant Pur and Pu (with A) present in the F1 cross which in principle should be purple, but this may still not actually amount to a full purple in the phenotype born out by experience from this group. I appreciate the surprising concept of a double dose of purple genes. Backcross to Sugar Magnolia if need be? Hmm. Food for thought. I'll keep you all in the loop what happens in the F2 generation.
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Post by templeton on May 29, 2017 7:59:00 GMT -5
Galina, when the pods are tiny, the purple is much reduced, often just a stripe along the seam. My red project peas are showing this at the moment. Additionally, when I checked this morning, the earlier pods on some plants were half purple, with considerably more purple on later pods- developmental, or climatic? Not sure. Deep purple can certainly stabilise in later generations as keen says.
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Post by templeton on May 29, 2017 7:59:36 GMT -5
Hey keen, did you get a package from me?
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Post by keen101 (Biolumo / Andrew B.) on May 29, 2017 11:48:31 GMT -5
Hey keen, did you get a package from me? Yep! meant to send you a note but i got busy and forgot. I know i got one with your pea seeds, but i can't find it at the moment. Was going to try and squeeze them in but i couldn't find it when the planting time came. Just as well though as my current pea patch is overgrown and overwhelming, not sure how i'm going to easily save separate seed this year either. and galina, yes you would think that having one of each dominant genes would be enough, and in theory they might be. But yes i seem to remember something about at least one of them, perhaps PUR being only splotchy with one dose and more complete coverage with a double dose. But yeah, as Templeton say's it's possible they will fill out more complete as they mature.
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Post by galina on May 29, 2017 13:37:54 GMT -5
and galina, yes you would think that having one of each dominant genes would be enough, and in theory they might be. But yes i seem to remember something about at least one of them, perhaps PUR being only splotchy with one dose and more complete coverage with a double dose. But yeah, as Templeton say's it's possible they will fill out more complete as they mature. Thank you both. No chance for further infilling on these two types of F1. The F1 of the cross with the snap is more purple, the cross with the mangetout is barely purple at the edges. We can only hope that later pods will be a bit better. The first pods on both are today bigger and we can see clearly what is or rather what is not. Double dose of Pur needed. I saved seeds last year from the same Sugar Magnolia plants I used in the cross. The pods for seed were actually pretty uniformly dark. I shared seeds and just now had a report from one grower who had purple as well as greenish pods from those seeds and wanted to query this with me. Environmental? It will be interesting to see what happens. I will also repeat the cross and as it happens, I have Opal Creek growing as well. White flowers but another possible cross. Why is it so easy to get proper full reliable red for shelling peas and not for mangetouts or snaps? I am also growing Mrs Lei, a pink flowered mangetout pea and this is another possible candidate for a cross with Sugar Magnolia.
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Post by Joseph Lofthouse on May 29, 2017 16:18:42 GMT -5
My take on Sugar Magnolia is that it's not a stable (fully inbred) variety, so green pods keep showing up.
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Post by galina on May 30, 2017 1:51:44 GMT -5
My take on Sugar Magnolia is that it's not a stable (fully inbred) variety, so green pods keep showing up. Yes I have seeds from two different sources and one batch has been very good. Up to now ........ Unfortunately that type seems to be changing now too. What variety has the most stable purple in your opinion, Joseph Lofthouse ?
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Post by keen101 (Biolumo / Andrew B.) on May 30, 2017 10:37:33 GMT -5
Quick update, no pictures sorry. But many of the reds/yellows are in bloom now, with a few early pods forming. some really good yellow pods. Not sure how many will turn red. The picture of the popping red tendrils has pretty much faded with the warmer weather so they are hardly noticeable except on one which seems to be growing in the "purples" patch. If it's growing over there AND has bright red tendrils that has to be a good one! Compared to most of the other pea varieites i'm surprised at how early flowering the yellow / reds are. There is one that has a small green pod in that patch, so i'm not sure what's going on with that one. Perhaps a purple pod got mixed in?
I also noticed many in the 2015 Sugar Magnolia patch to be showing considerable fasciation. More than normal. Makes me wonder if some of those are F1 crosses with the mummy peas from my haphazard 2015 crosses. Seed coat color should shed some light if they are. There is one plant in the mummy patch that does not show fasciation and also has wild-type bicolour purple flowers but has the extra flower branching trait like mummy-white so i'm thinking it has mummy-white in it's heritage. None of the others in the mummy patch are anywhere close to flowering.
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Post by templeton on Jul 29, 2017 3:16:54 GMT -5
Well long service leave started today, and I headed out to the garden to bring in all the mature pods on my coloured pea breeding lines - only to be confronted with a 'valuable learning experience'.
My F2 Jupiter X Giant Snowman cross (searching for a Deppe style eat everything even when mature purple podded pea), - the plants that were covered in maturing pods a week ago - were bereft of pods...not a single pod left. Checked all the breeding lines, in all my beds and many/most were decimated. It's gotta be the rats, that I thought were feasting on next door's lillypilly which is shedding fruit everywhere, but apparently there are some nutrients in the peas that are desirable... Interestingly, in my red lines, most of the antho lines were smashed, but the yellow lines growing with them - they are still segregating - were untouched. If only i could train a rodent to indicate the higher nutrient lines without eating them...rat-on-a-leash...my poor mother would have nightmares, being rodentaphobic... Well on most of the plants i managed to find a small upper pod or two with what i hope are mature enough seeds to go on with the next generation (F6) for an Antipodean vernal planting in a month or so. but those plants that were stripped - were they the best, tastiest, most nutritious plants? I'll never know...
I'm hoping that some of the Jupiter X Giant Snowman F2 seeds are still in the seed library - clearly they were very desirable, suggesting that the cross was a good one. T
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Post by philagardener on Jul 29, 2017 5:42:58 GMT -5
Sorry to hear the rats had their field day early. T. I've had this happen - one day all is fine, the next a few things are missing and then it all starts to disappear like they were using a vacuum cleaner. Hope you can find some seeds in reserve. Is the glass house any less vulnerable?
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Post by templeton on Jul 30, 2017 4:22:07 GMT -5
Phila, I think they are living in the greenhouse... I'm overwintering a nice blue chilli in there, and had a look a few weeks ago, most of the fruits removed, in a neat pile on the soil, the fruity outside nibbled off, the hot seeds and membrane left in piles surrounded by rat shit on the soil...The totally consumed peas aren't too precious, they were F2 of my next gen purple podded peas, aiming for vegetable perfection - my beds are going to be full of red-podded project lines anyway, and i did manage to salvage enough single pods to continue the important lines. T
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Post by quintusnsachs on Apr 2, 2019 15:02:33 GMT -5
Hi, since the last post was from July 2017, and I'm a 1st time visitor, I wonder how far is the RPP-Project? I've been wanting to buy seeds from www.vreeken.nl, but he's having them for the 3rd year in a row as 'not available'. I'm a collector of red fleshed fruits (except strawberries) and this red podded pea would make a wonderful contribution. The peas I grow are mostly Corne de BĂ©lier and Golden Sweet. I've tried the Blauwschokker once, since that's from my region of origin (Groningen/Drenthe, Netherlands), but I didn't like them. I prefer the mange touts. Hope to hear from anyone on this project, if the seeds are stable and available. Quintus
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