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Post by Joseph Lofthouse on Dec 8, 2010 15:35:17 GMT -5
And yet one more question to ponder. I read somewhere (about 2 years ago) that the "quality" of the TP "migrated" into the adjacent soil. In other words, the perimeter of the TP would slowly extend over time because the soil next to it would, over time (how much time?) become equal to the TP. Somehow, that just doesn't make a lot of sense to me. On the other hand, if I put a small piece of yeasted dough in the middle of a mass of unyeasted dough, eventually the entire mass becomes "infected" with the yeast. So, if it is true that TP "creeps" in a similar fashion, what is the attribute that allows it to accomplish this feat? Worms and beetles, and other animals dig in soil. Sometimes they kick a bit of terra pretta towards the perimeter. Wind blows, water flows. Sometimes it carries a bit of terra pretta towards the perimeter. Trees get blown over in the wind. Sometimes the soil around the roots moves closer to the perimeter.
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Post by paquebot on Dec 8, 2010 18:07:41 GMT -5
The peoples of the Amazon have always had an interesting way of disposing of their dead. They are cremated and the remains are eaten. Been going on for thousands of years and is still the way it is today. Slash and burn was always the normal way of clearing land for cultivation and still is the way. Both cremation and slash and burn require a lot of wood to be consumed. There are tropical hardwoods which almost turn an axe. They can leave a lot of charcoal behind. The first leaves it within the large communal complex while the second leaves it in the field.
Martin
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Post by mnjrutherford on Dec 9, 2010 13:32:37 GMT -5
Ya know, we can go back and forth on these issues forever. Not even those who write the articles, programs, and books can say what is what with absolute certainty. Why? Because these people and their reality was as thoroughly obliterated as the plate of divinity I made 3 days ago. We can never know the absolute truth. Never.
HOWEVER, we can try to replicate what they created in the terra preta (TP)! THIS is the fabulous part! So, what can we say is fact? Here are some of the points I understand to be factual: 1. TP is a blend of materials including: a. Animal/human remains b. animal/human feces c. charcoal (sometimes referred to as biochar) d. pottery shards 2. TP was "cooked" over long periods of time at a very low temperature 3. TP is extremely "powerful" soil for growing
What else can and should be added to this list?
NEXT, who else is attempting to replicate it? We all know that I have an experiment in progress that is based on my personal thoughts on the matter. Considering the wide variance of environments, I would love to see similar experiments going on. Zac? Martin? Any chance that you guys could do this?
It is not very labor intensive in the long term. It took Mike and the boys about 16 man hours to set up the second pit with the drainage hole. We used the same concrete blocks we had for the first pit and we purchased a couple of 50 lb bags of pea gravel to fill the drain. The concrete blocks can be switched back and forth each year and we obtained them by salvage. We will have to dig a drain and fill it with gravel in the first pit when we empty it this year.
No matter if any of us are wrong or right, the more of us that decide to cotton to the idea of actually trying to reproduce the TP, the more of us are going to have a chance of suddenly obtaining "the best soil on the planet". Now, who here on this forum would think that a bad idea?
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Post by silverseeds on Dec 9, 2010 13:37:43 GMT -5
great post jo.....
Yes I have many experiments going on, on this and many other important things......
I can now safely say, I can farm a VAST region considered non arable.... and after some breeding work, have a diverse line up to boot. In time I will assimilate it all, and work at distributing it.....
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Post by mnjrutherford on Dec 9, 2010 17:28:06 GMT -5
great post jo..... Yes I have many experiments going on, on this and many other important things...... I can now safely say, I can farm a VAST region considered non arable.... and after some breeding work, have a diverse line up to boot. In time I will assimilate it all, and work at distributing it..... Excellent Zac. Considering your area, I think you stand to be able to profit from the use of TP far more than most of us. Which brings up another question... Considering the distances between the pits, has anyone read anything about differences in the surrounding soil quality? I know about the terra mulata (TM), but were they ALL TM? How about the TP found in Russia and the UK?
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Post by paquebot on Dec 9, 2010 19:32:06 GMT -5
HOWEVER, we can try to replicate what they created in the terra preta (TP)! THIS is the fabulous part! So, what can we say is fact? Here are some of the points I understand to be factual: 1. TP is a blend of materials including: a. Animal/human remains b. animal/human feces c. charcoal (sometimes referred to as biochar) d. pottery shards 2. TP was "cooked" over long periods of time at a very low temperature 3. TP is extremely "powerful" soil for growing What else can and should be added to this list? NEXT, who else is attempting to replicate it? We all know that I have an experiment in progress that is based on my personal thoughts on the matter. Considering the wide variance of environments, I would love to see similar experiments going on. Zac? Martin? Any chance that you guys could do this? It can not be done in anyone's lifetime since it took perhaps a thousand years or more for the normal remains of human settlement to build up to that concentration. In the Mideast and Eastern Mediterranean, there are cities built atop cities which in turn had been build atop earlier cities. They remained partially intact due to the building material which was either stone or adobe. Had those cities been built of wooden frames covered with palm leaves, the original cities would probably still be there simply by having them rebuilt every few years. Such was the case in the Amazon and other tropical areas where terra preta is found. It amounts to long term settlement using highly biodegradable building materials. All of that has been proven. What throws a wrench into the fantasy daydreamers ideas is that there still remains remnants of that society and which are virtually unchanged. Every one of their practices correlates with the findings of how terra preta was formed. All pieces to the puzzle are there, none missing. Martin
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Post by castanea on Dec 9, 2010 20:35:52 GMT -5
HOWEVER, we can try to replicate what they created in the terra preta (TP)! THIS is the fabulous part! So, what can we say is fact? Here are some of the points I understand to be factual: 1. TP is a blend of materials including: a. Animal/human remains b. animal/human feces c. charcoal (sometimes referred to as biochar) d. pottery shards 2. TP was "cooked" over long periods of time at a very low temperature 3. TP is extremely "powerful" soil for growing What else can and should be added to this list? NEXT, who else is attempting to replicate it? We all know that I have an experiment in progress that is based on my personal thoughts on the matter. Considering the wide variance of environments, I would love to see similar experiments going on. Zac? Martin? Any chance that you guys could do this? It can not be done in anyone's lifetime since it took perhaps a thousand years or more for the normal remains of human settlement to build up to that concentration. In the Mideast and Eastern Mediterranean, there are cities built atop cities which in turn had been build atop earlier cities. They remained partially intact due to the building material which was either stone or adobe. Had those cities been built of wooden frames covered with palm leaves, the original cities would probably still be there simply by having them rebuilt every few years. Such was the case in the Amazon and other tropical areas where terra preta is found. It amounts to long term settlement using highly biodegradable building materials. All of that has been proven. What throws a wrench into the fantasy daydreamers ideas is that there still remains remnants of that society and which are virtually unchanged. Every one of their practices correlates with the findings of how terra preta was formed. All pieces to the puzzle are there, none missing. Martin None of that has been proven. Your approach is to find one piece of a puzzle and think you have completed the puzzle, when in fact you have no clue even as to the nature or extent of the puzzle.
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Post by paquebot on Dec 9, 2010 20:45:41 GMT -5
None of that has been proven. Your approach is to find one piece of a puzzle and think you have completed the puzzle, when in fact you have no clue even as to the nature or extent of the puzzle. Are you saying that scientists have not been trying to duplicate it? That is totally false. All you need to do to begin is a Google search for "terra preta" to know that there have been a great many scientists studying it. If they were not, then neither you nor I would even know about it. National Geographic, for one, went into great details to study it as have many others. The information is all out there for anyone who wants to find it. For those who have an ulterior agenda, or whom to be conveniently ignorant, that's their prerogative. For those who are willing to learn, there's been plenty of clues as to where to look for more knowledge. Martin
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Post by paquebot on Dec 9, 2010 21:15:37 GMT -5
Martin, I agree with the conjecture that the "meat & bone" content of TP is probably human. From what I know of the history of the people and the area, it's perfectly logical. At least you have had the sense to look into what I say about those people. They are so paranoid about every part of their bodies staying in their village that they now want some blood samples back. The cremations are done in the village. You already know that but I'll give everyone else a "bone" to chew on. www.suite101.com/content/death-customs-of-cathinahua-and-yanomamoe-people-a102270Diets were probably similar except more vegetables and less meat, especially in the Amazon area. Those people had no domestic livestock so the bulk of their meat came from fish or wild animals. Even where there is little human population, large wild animals are rare so red meat would be at a premium if the "lost cities" were as big as they supposedly were. And that's the part which the best scientific minds have been unable to crack. The two things common with all terra preta sites worldwide is that of their contents and their many years of human habitation. Nobody has yet determined how long it takes for such an organism, if it is a separate organism, to develop. If it were possible to reproduce in a short time, there should be little problem to locate most of the ingredients. Martin
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Post by paquebot on Dec 9, 2010 21:48:18 GMT -5
At least you have had the sense to look into what I say about those people. Martin uh... your back to talking about a historically non farming people again. you seem confused. Ive read about many of these people in the area, which is specifically why I know your opinion is such a narrow view. We know very little of most of the peoples of the area, especially since their culture fell. But the one we know most of, is the ones you keep mentioning, and they historically were not farmers. the closest thing they did to farming was chop down certain trees and wait for grubs to get in there.... But the one thing that we all know is that the terra preta areas are the waste remains of human settlements, human settlements which just happen to be very similar to what little remains of the pre-Columbian peoples. Those facts can not be disputed as both are proven by reputable sources. Anything contrary is merely conjecture based on what one would like it to be rather than what it is. Martin
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Post by grunt on Dec 10, 2010 1:39:07 GMT -5
This is what I was referring to when I queried whether or not anyone had tried inoculating soil patches with TP soil, to see if it would "take". I think it likely that there is a very complex symbiosis that takes perhaps many years to trigger, and has a number of requirements that we haven't even considered yet. It may be that we have already done so much damage to our environment, that we can no longer bring together the necessary materials and conditions to recreate actual TP. That does not lessen the value of trying to replicate as much of the original conditions as possible. Even incorporating only some of the practices/materials into our gardening procedures is well worth doing. We can beat this topic to pieces, and strain relations between us in the process, and still be no closer to an answer that all/any of us can agree on. Or we can offer up what we have for evidence/conjecture/opinion, and pose questions that we know will never be fully answered, and admit that we are never going to know for sure how much if any of our ideas are correct. I know just enough about TP to know that I don't even know what questions to ask anymore. I thought I had a bit of a handle on part of it, but I keep running across information that I knew and had forgotten about, that throws a kink into what I thought I knew. Regardless, it is a fascinating topic. Like serious gardening/seed saving/sharing/trading, I wish I had been introduced to it 30 years ago, when I still had enough time to really get into it. The 20 or so years I think I may have a chance at yet are just not long enough to make much headway at the rate I manage to do things. But that doesn't mean I won't try anyway. Cheers Dan
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Post by mnjrutherford on Dec 10, 2010 3:21:07 GMT -5
Wow Martin, I just read that article you linked to regarding the death rituals about the 2 Amazonian people groups. Fascinating. (I may never eat plantains again! ) I found it rather interesting in the first group that there is a ritualistic washing process. Very much like the bible describes in the books of law. So, there is some conjecture that the TP might be some sort of organism? Sort of a fungus? Or more appropriately "fungal like" in its growth and development? In all of the articles I have read, I have never heard of anything (that I recall) that discusses the real possibility of recreating TP. I have of course read about attempts to recreate it based on the research. Just never heard of the researchers themselves doing anything. I'm wondering now, what happens to the quality of the TP if a portion is removed from the main body? I have heard that in these days, native peoples are bagging it up and selling it as a sort of fertilizer. But how well does it work? Working on the understanding that it would take an undefined period of time to create a true TP, how long do you suppose it would take for someone in a relatively wet and vegetative area to see an effect from using TP versus someone in an arrid area? Would you do anything differently depending on the soil quality? For example, adding sand to a heavy clay soil? What would you add to a sandy soil to increase density?
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Post by keen101 (Biolumo / Andrew B.) on Dec 10, 2010 8:42:53 GMT -5
This is just my opinion as i have never done tests with terra preta. But, this is all so fascinating, that i hope to someday.
But yes, in my opinion it's really nothing special. I think it's just soil that has all the ingredients to support life, and plenty of molds, yeasts, and fungi (multiple species) that break down these organic compounds, and organic matter even further into their most basic elements. and in the process probably create symbiotic relationships with plants in the process.
From what others have said, this appears to take a long time in undisturbed areas. But, water and fungi are probably key elements. I think that if you could somehow heat a whole pile of this stuff, that you might be able to speed up the process considerably. It just has to be moist enough, and probably protected from sunlight to have the right conditions for the fungi to thrive. It would be like a giant incubator, like they use in laboratories when they study fungi for research.
maybe that's another reason plants grow better in greenhouses. Not only do the plants benefit directly from the higher amounts of moisture and heat, but so do the microorganism's in the soil.
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Post by PapaVic on Dec 10, 2010 8:52:08 GMT -5
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Post by ottawagardener on Dec 10, 2010 9:01:26 GMT -5
Jo: I wouldn't think it as an organism but a colony of organisms or as has been said a symbiotic system just like any soil web except this might have special/particular community members - or not as the case may be. It could be that the same affect could be had from indigenous/local organisms under the same processes.
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