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Post by PatrickW on Feb 26, 2009 9:59:57 GMT -5
As most of you probably know by now, it's almost impossible to grow tomatoes outdoors in most of northwest Europe because of late blight. After some years of searching Frank (orflo) has come across a very blight resistant variety called Tomatito de Jalapa, a wild tomato that doesn't seem to have been fully classified yet. All I can find are references saying it's a Lycopersicum-something.
I would like to try crossing this such that I end up with it's blight resistance in a 'normal' tomato.
I suspect not a lot of work has been done on this, because there is not a big culture of tomato breeding in this part of Europe and North America doesn't seem to have the problem with late blight on outdoor grown tomatoes. Does anyone know better, and can they point me to any more information or people that may have done work on this?
I also have no experience whatsoever breeding tomatoes, and have no idea what to expect in terms of how the genes will express themselves with a cross like this. Can anyone more experienced suggest a good L. esculentum to try crossing with this L.-something?
Because late blight is a problem here for outdoor grown tomatoes, I'm very limited in the amount of greenhouse space available. I'm already planning to grow some tomatoes of Russian/former USSR origin from Andrey Baranovski of Belarus that I suspect are mostly very early red tomatoes. I'm also growing Brown Berry, one that tolerated the blight better than most last year. I probably have space for 1 or 2 more varieties, if anyone has any suggestions.
Please don't be afraid to tell me I'm trying something hopeless!
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Post by raymondo on Feb 26, 2009 14:59:23 GMT -5
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Post by grunt on Feb 26, 2009 19:16:06 GMT -5
Patrick: I think the fellow you want to talk to about that would be Tom Wagner. He is probably the most experienced of all of us regarding tomato breeding.
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Post by kctomato on Feb 26, 2009 20:09:28 GMT -5
here are a few sources which should be available to you: West Virginia 63 Ph-1New Yorker Ph-1Richter's Wild Tomato Ph-2 Legend Ph-2Moboline Ph-2Mecline Ph-2PI 365957 Ph-3 L pimp line There are other Ph-3 lines but they require permission to obtain from the AVDRC. Ph-1, Ph-2 and Ph-3 were all originally derived from L pimpinellifolium I believe for more sources of the Ph 1, Ph-2 and Ph-3 genes you may want to obtain the complete thesis of James Brusca here is an abstract see www.lib.ncsu.edu/theses/available/etd-06042003-073908/unrestricted/etd.pdfThere are resistance genes from L hirsutum but the are so closely linked to other negative traits they are not being utilized yet.
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Post by pugs on Feb 26, 2009 20:36:50 GMT -5
Patrick,
Legend, a tomato bred by Dr. James Baggett at Oregon State University (although I understand he is retired now) is suppose to be late blight tolerant.
Here is what Territorial Seeds has to say about it:
"Legend Tomato Conventional & Organic 68 days. If late blight has been a problem in your garden, you should try growing Legend. Legend has shown strong tolerance of late blight fungus US8 and US11. So even in the most virulent areas, gardeners have a great chance of harvesting ripe tomatoes. Legend not only demonstrates tolerance of late blight, but is also the earliest maturing slicing tomato we know of. Legend produces amazingly sweet tomatoes, with just the right amount of acid flavor. The big 4-5 inch parthenocarpic fruit are glossy red, with a uniform round shape. Please keep in mind that being tolerant of blight is just that: tolerant-not immune. Bred and released by Dr. Jim Baggett at Oregon State University. Determinate."
I've read that some people don't like the taste of this tomato. I haven't tried it yet.
I've got seed of it I can send you, if you'll PM your address.
Pugs
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Post by orflo on Feb 27, 2009 0:52:07 GMT -5
That's the problem: there's a big difference between European and American circumstances... A few years ago, I tried this 'Legend'... supposedly very hardy to late blight, promoted at that time (and probably still) to be amazingly resistant, a huge crop of nice round tomatoes, and so on... My result: NOT ONE ripe tomato from this so-called resistant tomato! Late blight by the end of June... (Who invented the word 'late' before blight?) The only ones that thrived that year were the tomatito Patrick mentions, barbaniaka and Phytoresista. The last one has some bigger-sized tomatoes, but is very unproductive, I got 5-7 tomatoes each plant, and they got the blight as well, but later. Barbaniaka was more resistant, having loads of small tomatoes, and it ended up with the familiar black spots, and so on; it did give quite a good crop though. But tomatito d jalapa outperformed everything, lasted almost until the first frost, and gave a huge crop....
I quit trying big tomatoes outside, it's just impossible over here to grow them without a sheltered spot or fungicides. So now I'm only concentrating on wild tomatoes for outside growing, humboldtii was great last year, another good one was parvibaccatum; columbianum didn't last long, so I won't try that one again. I got 4 or 5 new wild varieties this year, some are promising, but we'll see...
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Post by canadamike on Feb 27, 2009 1:06:31 GMT -5
I agree so much with your comment on the lateness of blight I vote for a change of names: first and second blight might be more exact, unless first does not show up, then second would become first... Any better ideas? Any new name should not be useful for long as according to a paper I read last year they are expected to ''merge'' and become one big blight. Diseases are starting to behave like big corporations...is it part of the new world order Maybe Doc Kapuler could tell us more about it... the blights I mean...
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Post by atimberline on Feb 27, 2009 9:43:35 GMT -5
That's the problem: there's a big difference between European and American circumstances... A few years ago, I tried this 'Legend'... supposedly very hardy to late blight, promoted at that time (and probably still) to be amazingly resistant, a huge crop of nice round tomatoes, and so on... My result: NOT ONE ripe tomato from this so-called resistant tomato! Late blight by the end of June... (Who invented the word 'late' before blight?) The only ones that thrived that year were the tomatito Patrick mentions, barbaniaka and Phytoresista. The last one has some bigger-sized tomatoes, but is very unproductive, I got 5-7 tomatoes each plant, and they got the blight as well, but later. Barbaniaka was more resistant, having loads of small tomatoes, and it ended up with the familiar black spots, and so on; it did give quite a good crop though. But tomatito d jalapa outperformed everything, lasted almost until the first frost, and gave a huge crop.... I quit trying big tomatoes outside, it's just impossible over here to grow them without a sheltered spot or fungicides. So now I'm only concentrating on wild tomatoes for outside growing, humboldtii was great last year, another good one was parvibaccatum; columbianum didn't last long, so I won't try that one again. I got 4 or 5 new wild varieties this year, some are promising, but we'll see... Orflo, I will be happy to make the F1's for you using tomatito d jalapa, humboldtii, and parvibaccatum;... just send me a few seed of each of those and tell me what you want them crossed to, or I will pick a variety of types and send you F1's, or later a mass of F2's... maybe some backcrosses will be needed... happy to help if you want... I know you are short on space, so if I do the crosses all you have to do is plant a thick bed of F1 or F2 material, cull out the blight suseptible, and take it from there Tim Peters seed and research
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Post by americangardener on Feb 27, 2009 9:55:10 GMT -5
WOW Frank.. Who'd you kill? Just wondering who i'd have to kill to get a famous breeder like Tim to offer to work with me.
Just joking Tim.. i'm not gonna go out and kill anyone. Just think it's amazing of you to offer your help so kindly.
Now.. if i could get just one of our other famous breeders here to let me help with one of their projects.. well.. it'd make me feel important. I'd probably get in the way more than help though.
Good luck you guys on your project.. i'm gonna look forward to reading about your progress as you develop the next new variety of disease resistant tomatoes.
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Post by atimberline on Feb 27, 2009 10:12:43 GMT -5
I agree so much with your comment on the lateness of blight I vote for a change of names: first and second blight might be more exact, unless first does not show up, then second would become first... Any better ideas? Any new name should not be useful for long as according to a paper I read last year they are expected to ''merge'' and become one big blight. Diseases are starting to behave like big corporations...is it part of the new world order Maybe Doc Kapuler could tell us more about it... the blights I mean... You make me laugh!.... these diseases are a part of the new order... Apart from that, disease organisms make katrillions of offspring, some percent of which are mutants ...and part-breeds to other things . They are constantly bombarding us, animals, plants... and when our defenses are down, hosting into us - a new specie Many organ transplants don't work without knocking out our immune system... diease crossovers move into the weakest first then adapt further and move into the stronger of the new host sp. ...I have seen that with this blight in particular.
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Post by orflo on Feb 27, 2009 11:25:20 GMT -5
Tim, I'll send you some seeds, and I appreciate your offer. I was planning to do some 'mass crossing' of these resistant strains myself, the idea came to me last year but I lost it , until Patrick told me what he was about to do... This mass crossing is inspired a bit by the results that were obtained with the 'sarpo' potatoes, which have an amazing resistance. We can compare results of the whole thing, Patrick, Tim and me, we could have some different reports coming out of it, and I want to use some other wild ones as well: sorry, I only have a very limited supply of them: broad ripple yellow currant bolivianische obsttomate, yellow wild-tomate orange aurantiacum
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Post by PatrickW on Feb 27, 2009 12:49:14 GMT -5
Wow, thanks everyone for the responses!
Ray, I remember reading before about the idea of horizontal resistance and thinking it was something I should read more about. Wageningen University is so, well, corporate, but you're right a contact there might be a good thing to have. They have something there called 'Food Valley' (named after Silicon Valley in the US), and do research on things like GMOs, nanotech and synbio. I guess they must do some traditional breeding, but it certainly takes second stage.
And, yes, I've heard from others Legend doesn't do well here.
I'm looking forward to seeing what Tim, Frank and I can come up with.
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Post by tatermater on Feb 27, 2009 13:30:54 GMT -5
I live in Late Blight Heaven. It swoops down every year before I can get all of my tomatoes all picked. Since I have to extract seed from so many lines before they are blackened, I get exhausted working day and night processing seed. I have little problem now with potatoes since I have so many lines that seem to be partially to very resistant to foliar collapse. Tuber resistant too!
I have much better luck lately with the holy grail of tomatoes here in the PNW, getting even one ripe tomato before the blight hits. Good sources of Ph-2 and Ph-3 in heirloom crosses galore. I will have to put up some pictures soon of the proof in the pudding.
Tom
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Post by raymondo on Feb 27, 2009 15:41:04 GMT -5
Excellent outcome guys. Very exciting.
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Post by PatrickW on Feb 28, 2009 11:20:17 GMT -5
Tom,
If you have any suggestions on good heirloom varieties to try in crosses, I'd love to hear!
Also, I'm curious, by now you have so many blight resistant potatoes, Do you find their flavor overall is as good as the older varieties more susceptible to blight? I hope you're able to bring some of your potatoes with you when you come to Europe.
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