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Post by ottawagardener on Aug 26, 2009 21:29:39 GMT -5
I feel very Xfiley right now but happy as always about the work that is done here. Congrats on those healthy taters Tom, Michel and all!
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Post by tatermater on Aug 27, 2009 10:46:19 GMT -5
I was out in a few of the 15 garden plots that I have planted to take pictures of potatoes for future reference. I feel pretty confidant that I can identify full sibs of the ones Michel is focusing on. For that reason, I hurried up my potato berry (TPS) extraction of those lines where I am crossing late blight resistant lines (or at least those that carry the genetics) together. I am hoping that there is some advantage to concentrate the genes resisting late blight to some degree of homozygosity. Since I am trying to build up huge populations of germplasm in the true seed for eventual grow-outs, any perceived visual advantage is welcomed when it comes to late blight. As I think I posted somewhere earlier that I work with many clones that have purported late blight resistance, the overwhelming majority of those are late maturing, maybe not in the host country, but certainly where I live. So here I am, trying to figure out the horizontal and vertical resistance genes, etc., in order to amalgamate what I need for the future. Then I harken back to documented statements such as the following.... And I realized that crosses of Atzimba to Tom Kaighin potato seedlings may be full of defeated R genes, but that they may be essential to incorporate into lines with the minor resistant genes and ....oh well. Sometimes I don't know which way to jump...up or over. The problem we all face is one of the difficulty in differentiating.javascript:add("%20: ") Tom Wagner, struggling to be a "Know it All" but falling into the trap of "A LITTLE knowledge is a dangerous thing!"
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Post by PatrickW on Aug 27, 2009 13:22:20 GMT -5
Tom,
You just explained the problems with horizontal resistance against blight in tomatoes on your blog, something I was already a little familiar with. Have you seen anything along these lines in your potatoes?
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Post by tatermater on Aug 27, 2009 16:18:18 GMT -5
Trying to bore the readership, eh, Patrick.
As to my education to be a elementary teacher, I find it necessary to preface my response.
I am so convinced that there are many residual depleted R genes as well as residual depleted genes of all kinds that can have an effect if combined with important resistance genes Therein lies the dilemma; how does one know when a clone is superior to late blight resistance than another due to those unknown residual depleted genes? If Ph-2 at one time was all you needed to get satisfactory blight resistance in the "old days" and now is not, can the mere presence of those genes in a allelle fashion some resistance when the blight is not so virulent?
I have these clones that are described as R gene differentials. I saved true seed from as many as I could with the idea of growing out the seedlings under the pressure of late blight to see if I could re-shuffle the R gene differentials and then cross to my best blight resistant lines regardless of what they have in their genome.
I don't expect anyone to understand the following rather out of date document statement.
But I have true seed of PI 587060 which has LBDiff R11 and true seed of PI 215618 which has LBDiff R1R2R3R4, just to name 8 of those that have different levels of R genes. If the selfed seedlings of all 8 were grown and show some level of resistance from fair to excellent were inter mated, the horizontal resistance of that material would be perhaps important for the whole idea of vertical/horizontal resistance.
As the late blight mutates or undergoes some sexual reproduction rather than asexual reproduction, a breeder like myself would be better equipped to have a virtual store house of breeding material in constant flux. That, and in combination with agronomic and flavor factors, one could be at the forefront of having annual field resistance year after year.
Patrick, I know I didn't come close to answering your question, but I am busy extracting seed and I didn't have time to deliver in a way to be understood.
Tom Wagner
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Post by silverseeds on Aug 27, 2009 16:26:24 GMT -5
This is so interesting. Good luck
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Post by johno on Aug 27, 2009 19:19:25 GMT -5
Late blight, or early, or both... gets my tomatoes every year. This year was no different. But I've got a few in the main tomato area which are still hanging on pretty well after the others are brown and crispy. Thought I'd share their names with you, and see if they do as well elsewhere: Liz Birt, Dora, Marizol Bratka, Carbon, and Fireball. The last two are holding up best.
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Post by canadamike on Aug 27, 2009 22:39:26 GMT -5
early blight is kind of a junior problem for me....compared to late blight Aspirin water is SOMETHING TO LOOK AT, I FEEL IT SO STRONGLY, I can't explain the power of the intuition, keeps resounding in me. I really really can't explain why, but it keeps staying with me all the time these days. And I mean ALL THE TIME, even at night in the bed . I have never had such a bad year NOR such a strong intuition. Do not see anything scientific here, although the published evidence ( minor) seems positive, my guts are almost killing me that I should try it. And, as opposed as my usual ''doubt first'' attitude, it keeps coming back haunting me. Needed to share it. And for some reason, it is like I KNOW it will work and help. Not I think, but I KNOW. I am in a different realm with this one, am I becoming some kind of mystical freak? Can't explain it, too powerful for me
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Post by silverseeds on Aug 27, 2009 22:41:38 GMT -5
michel I have found in this life those types of feelings either are always right or ALWAYS lead to the right answer in the search of discovery, and the testing of it. PLEASE dont doubt it.
what about willow bark though? Isnt that what aspirin is copying?
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Post by johno on Aug 27, 2009 22:52:20 GMT -5
Aspirin surely won't hurt, so nothing to lose by trying it. Last year I watered transplants with it, and might have sprayed them a couple times early on. This year I planted an aspirin with each (tomato) transplant. It's hard to compare one year with another because conditions are always different, but it seems like the aspirin delayed problems somewhat compared to previous years. Maybe more sprayings would have more effect, but it was my understanding that the main effect was a boost to the immune system early in development, something like a vaccination.
I agree that you should listen to your intuition. That's where solutions start.
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Post by michaeljohnson on Aug 28, 2009 0:36:48 GMT -5
Even though Late Blight more or less totally wiped me out again this year-Got almost a hundred plants, I did notice one thing that offers some resistance from the last time the blight got me a couple of years ago-unfortunately I did not practice it this time (am kicking myself)
After the first bout of blight was over a couple of years ago, lots of the plants recovered and went on to start growing and producing fruit again for another couple of months afterwards of those ones that had not been too badly hit-where for example it only got half the plant-a few branches and leaves etc,- seeds saved from those tomatoes after they recovered went on the following year with an inbuilt blight resistance to the disease, it seems that they had built up antibodies to it, so I wish I had sown some this year-but as always I grow different varieties to the previous year-every single year, and did not sow any. I know a lot of people won't agree with that theory-but it worked for me.
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Post by canadamike on Aug 28, 2009 0:40:18 GMT -5
You teaser, you....
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Post by grungy on Aug 28, 2009 3:23:25 GMT -5
Michel, I go along with Johno. Follow your intuition. It's Mother Nature's way of giving you a gentle nudge.
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Post by PatrickW on Aug 28, 2009 5:10:42 GMT -5
Thanks Tom!
I don't understand 100% of what you said, and of course more information prompts even more questions, but you did mostly answer my question. We can talk more later.
I have a much better idea of what you're doing, thinking about, where your breeding work stands and some of the complexities you're dealing with. Honestly, I find it pretty impressive you're sorting this all out with tetraploid chromosomes (four, instead of a pair like most plants).
Thanks again.
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Post by tatermater on Aug 28, 2009 9:23:57 GMT -5
Patrick,
Yes, tetraploids makes everything in the job more like shooting fish in a barrel; you never quite know what you are going to hit.
I am digging the diploids this morning here where I am in Vancouver, WA. In fact I am digging the named varieties from around the world, the late blight differentials, etc. Thirty people maybe to help dig. I am video taping the event.
Sometimes there is little science in what I am doing, just mountains of varieties in a hope to hit some of those fish.
Tom Wagner
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Post by canadamike on Aug 28, 2009 15:55:50 GMT -5
So is it for us Tom, and it is called trials and it is science...one day, when you get older and wiser know as much about potatoes than we all do here you'll understand I feel like a lil'bugger today, sorry ;D
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