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Post by keen101 (Biolumo / Andrew B.) on Oct 24, 2011 15:16:14 GMT -5
I was able to hand pollinate BOTH my Zea mexicana plant and the Northern Tepehuan Teosinte with the pollen of the Zea mexicana today! (about 5 min. ago). Now they have about a day and a half to do their genetic thing until we get a big snow storm. Hopefully thats enough time. I will proceed to cut them both down and bring them inside to dry at that point. Even if the pollination wasn't successful, i'm still really excited that i just hand pollinated teosinte. I find it kind of ironic that i learned to hand pollinate teosinte before i ever tried it on corn.
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Post by DarJones on Oct 24, 2011 17:07:46 GMT -5
I would drop some simile and metaphor on the floor to roll around with your irony.
I always get a kick out of simile, metaphor, irony, and cynicism.
DarJones
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Post by turtleheart on Oct 24, 2011 17:26:31 GMT -5
the meadowcroft site here in PA showed seneca corn urns dated 16 thousand years old. land bridge and young corn theories are questionable (although people went across the land bridge, just probably the other way).
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Post by DarJones on Oct 24, 2011 18:52:30 GMT -5
Turtle, there is spotty but reasonable evidence to support human presence in the Americas roughly 50,000 years ago. There is very solid evidence for human activities in the last 20,000 years.
Current evidence is very strong that corn was domesticated in the Balsas river valley in Mexico roughly 9000 years ago. I'm curious if you are arguing that corn was domesticated prior to this.
DarJones
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Post by oxbowfarm on Oct 25, 2011 4:27:05 GMT -5
9000 years old is right in line with all other major cereal crop domestication times. Rice and wheat were also domesticated just about that same era of the Neolithic.
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Post by turtleheart on Oct 25, 2011 6:43:49 GMT -5
my oral traditional and many others, and the carbon record show more evidence to the contrary. no matter how many americans tell me corn is younger than 10,000 years old i will continue to have more reliable information.
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Post by steev on Oct 25, 2011 10:36:46 GMT -5
turtleheart, I'd be very interested in any citations you can point me to that relate to carbon dating of corn older than 9000 years. It's always valuable to expand our horizons.
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Post by turtleheart on Oct 25, 2011 15:25:33 GMT -5
i dont agree with everything that the people running meadowcroft do or say, but here is the link. i say that it should be run by senecas and at least natives. they have misrepresentation of our agriculture displayed there, and they asked their only native tour guide to work in buckskins, which he declined immediately. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meadowcroft_Rockshelter
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Post by turtleheart on Oct 25, 2011 15:27:49 GMT -5
in our oral tradition we were always hunters and always gathered fruits from the woods, and we also always had corn, which is part of our creation history. in fact corn is older than humans in the creation history.
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Post by steev on Oct 25, 2011 18:46:02 GMT -5
Interesting wiki article, but nothing I read in it points to corn remains carbon-dated to 16,000 years. The creation history commonly ascribed to my own group indicates to some people that the whole Earth is less than 7,000 years old. I have doubts about such things, which sometimes I wish I could resolve.
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Post by traab on Jan 25, 2012 12:41:00 GMT -5
I thank people for the excellent discussion and links.
In 2010 teosinte Zea Mexicana from Native Seed/Search was planted in 12 inch pots with the pot base set in the ground a few inches. The plants had set seed which ripened inside in a bright cool room after the pots were moved. In 2011 pots were planted in April inside and set in the garden. The seeds had more time to develop more color on seed coats.
I was very interested to see the seeds set one a top of each other with no external stalk. The structures that pass nutrients from one seed to another will be interesting to learn about. The plants tillered here with each producing tassels and pollen shed weeks before the silk showed. Side branches that bore multiple husked seed ears (no cobs) also ended with tassels that shed pollen when silks were showing.
Comparing the teosinte plant growth with some Peruvian corn growth. I was able to start a few types of 4 Peruvian corn varieties inside in loose perlite soaking with week nutrients and a b-vitamin over heat (the router). The plants at 4 inches high were gently removed from the perlite and planted in the garden April 15 at about 42 degrees latitude. Cloutches and warm weak nutrient/vitamin solution was used at planting. Three varieties set near black plastic mulch and shed pollen in late August after putting out 15 leaves per stalk. Silking followed a few weeks later. The morado grew without plastic mulch- shedding pollen after the other varieties. On the morado stalks snapped while gathering pollen and due to wind. Ears on shanks 20 inches (0.5 Meters) grew after stalk leaves were wind shredded. The flag leaves on the ears were large . From the stalk snapped (earliest) while gathering pollen tassels emerges from the flag leaves along with silk. These long shanked ears were brought in before frost to further seed maturation. The Morado ears and some other Peruvian ears produced additional kernels at the anther branches originating from the base of the ears forming a main 8 row purple cob and 3-5 side anther stems with seeds. The terminal tasseling with pollen shed before silking was a common experience for each plant in this planting. The long well leafed ear shank (12 nodes) with a terminal tassels on one Morado stalk has much in resemblance with the Teosinte side braching from both main stalk and tillers. I had planted early season corns late which silked and tasseled at times allowing casual pollen transfer with Teosinte and Peruvian corn varieties. It will be interesting to see if any crossing took place in the new seeds. Peruvian Morado (purple corns) are said to derive Kculli (Quechuan) an long time race. To my thinking early starts and an indoor ripening strategy can perhaps just stretch conditions enough for a seeds and pollen! Frost free late May to late October. Nice conversations here! Much to learn from, thanks
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Post by rammstein on Feb 1, 2012 17:10:50 GMT -5
I'm interested to this ancient corn, and i would like to grow it, where i can find seeds?
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Post by Joseph Lofthouse on Feb 1, 2012 17:38:49 GMT -5
I'm interested to this ancient corn, and i would like to grow it, where i can find seeds? I like Native Seeds / Search.
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Post by keen101 (Biolumo / Andrew B.) on Feb 1, 2012 22:19:32 GMT -5
Yes, Native Seeds carries and interesting teosinte that they call "Northern Tepehuan Maizillo" 208.113.230.85/index.php/order/31/69/seeds/nss-seed-collection/cornmaize/teosinteThe USDA has accessions of the rest. www.ars-grin.gov/cgi-bin/npgs/swish/accboth?si=0&query=zea+mexicana&x=0&y=0&btnG=Go!&filter=0&as_sitesearch=ars.usda.gov&ie=&output=xml_no_dtd&client=usda&lr=&proxystylesheet=ARS&oe= I'm fairly certain the teosinte from NativeSeeds is NOT Zea Mexicana. I have been unable to positively identify it with any known teosinte variety from the seeds samples i have. It's seeds are distinct from the others and it has green pollen. The Zea Mexicana i got from the USDA has yellow pollen and seeds very similar to the other ones. I will say that the Zea Mexicana from the USDA and whatever variety NativeSeeds sells do have one significant trait in common. They are both single stalked varieties (no tillers). So who knows..
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Post by rammstein on Feb 2, 2012 12:33:01 GMT -5
Thanks, I do not know if the teosinte may grow in Italy, I live in north Italy 45°28´N 009°12´E so the temperature and climate condition and hour of light-darkness maybe different from the optimal. And I do not think that the USDA can give me seeds because i'm not in the USA. I try with seeds exchange or i'll buy on the web.
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