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Post by Joseph Lofthouse on Jul 22, 2010 13:07:33 GMT -5
Today as I was driving to work, I noticed wheat growing along the road between the fence and the pavement. There was mile after mile of wheat. Sometimes there would be mostly all wheat growing, and sometimes there would be mostly other things with a few clumps of wheat here or there... Many of the wheat patches were far away from any field that is currently growing wheat.
So that got me to thinking, and I bet that there is feral wheat all over in many farming districts there for the taking by anyone that was interested in starting a wheat land-race that is unique to their environment.
Regards, Joseph
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Post by blueadzuki on Jul 22, 2010 14:42:32 GMT -5
Yep there is a lot of feral wheat around along with feral rye, feral barley,feral millet and feral oats (actually in the case of oats it is usually possible to find both feral oats and real honest to goodness wild oats (Avena fatua). Sometimes this stuff comes from food agriculture (spills from grain transports etc. but the vast majority actually seems to come from construction/landscaping. What usally happens is that after doing some work (like expanding a curb) the workers lay down some straw and that straw, straw that isn't 100% threshed. come a little rain and voila you have grain plants sprouting out of the sides of the road. Another common source where I live (especially in the case of the millet) is discarded birdseed either due to someone emptying out thier birds cage into the yard or throwing birdseed to birds in the park. even floral arrangements can get into the act since a lot of flowers, once they wither end up in compost piles and (at least in autumn) a lot of floral arragements feature wheat ears. In my own yard there is, in theory feral teff, the result of an attempt to grow some to fill in a gap before I realized that teff looks so much like several other "wild" grasses in my lawn, so I could never be sure which was the teff and which was any of the other bluegrasses/meadowgrasses. For a few years I had wheat in my yard that was both feral and wild, due to tossing out some old eikorn (triticum monooccum) I'd gotten in colledge and thought had spoiled. I agree that all of this feral grain might be a good source for genes for a land race. I would however offer one caveat, a lot of that dropped grain is a byproduct of the commerical agriculture (unless you live in an area that does a lot of home farming or possibly in Amish country or somehwere where there are a LOT of pre 1940's abandoned homesteads) the odds of random grains dropped by the edge of the road being something old and or heirloom are pretty low, most of its going to be the same hyper inbred, near clonal full of GMO stuff that the big farms are growing. A lot of that stuff is goign to come up fine the first year (i.e. the one when it landed) but is going to be utter crap thereafter. If I was trying to go after the stuff (and it was convenient) I might actually when I saw the grain simply mark the spot and wait a year or two, to let nature hone the pool down to what was really tough enough to take the climate. Also depending on what you plant to do with it, you may have some difficulties. I don't know how is around where you were, but around me, for reasons I've never been all that sure of, almost all of the feral wheat I see appears to be durum wheat, not bread wheat. Aroudn em the most likey reason is that I live less than a mile from a working restoration of a 17th century Dutch Farm (who do make a point of using period appropritate strains of winter rye and wheat when possible) so random droppings by brids may skew it. Or it may just be that the harder wheats just do better on thier own. Of course a floral patch is almost aways only Durum as that's what they tend to want (probably becuse Durum's strong square shape and long straight beards are considered both more attactive than modern bread wheats and more in line with what people think wheat looks like (I almost guantee you ask 100 people to draw and describe what a wheat ear looks like, and at least 90% will still probably imagine an "old style" fully bearded square boxy ear.) so If you are looking for something to ultimately make bread out of you may have trouble.
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Post by mjc on Jul 22, 2010 15:01:30 GMT -5
I agree that all of this feral grain might be a good source for genes for a land race. I would however offer one caveat, a lot of that dropped grain is a byproduct of the commerical agriculture (unless you live in an area that does a lot of home farming or possibly in Amish country or somehwere where there are a LOT of pre 1940's abandoned homesteads) the odds of random grains dropped by the edge of the road being something old and or heirloom are pretty low, most of its going to be the same hyper inbred, near clonal full of GMO stuff that the big farms are growing. A lot of that stuff is goign to come up fine the first year (i.e. the one when it landed) but is going to be utter crap thereafter. If I was trying to go after the stuff (and it was convenient) I might actually when I saw the grain simply mark the spot and wait a year or two, to let nature hone the pool down to what was really tough enough to take the climate. I'd be very tempted to use a little RoundUp on a patch...and if the stuff survived...think about one of Comrade Molotov's Cocktails next time I passed by...or at least a weedwacker before it set seed.
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Post by spacecase0 on Jul 22, 2010 15:16:59 GMT -5
so If you are looking for something to ultimately make bread out of you may have trouble. I have made bread out of durum wheat, it makes a fine bread, have you ever tried it ?
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Post by plantsnobin on Jul 22, 2010 19:55:13 GMT -5
I don't think that wheat planted now is GM. Monsanto ran into a lot of resistance over it a few years back, and dropped it. There are renewed calls though, so it will only be a matter of time, but I think for now you would be ok to gather what you find growing.
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Post by blueadzuki on Jul 22, 2010 20:59:46 GMT -5
so If you are looking for something to ultimately make bread out of you may have trouble. I have made bread out of durum wheat, it makes a fine bread, have you ever tried it ? No, while I have tried growing the odd small grain I don't really have the space to grow enough grain to actually make anything from it. I was just going from what I heard here, I was always told that durum lacked sufficient gluten to make bread that was stretchy and elastic. Guess I was misinformed.
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Post by mnjrutherford on Jul 23, 2010 6:31:18 GMT -5
I have made bread out of durum wheat, it makes a fine bread, have you ever tried it ? No, while I have tried growing the odd small grain I don't really have the space to grow enough grain to actually make anything from it. I was just going from what I heard here, I was always told that durum lacked sufficient gluten to make bread that was stretchy and elastic. Guess I was misinformed. Great breads come in all shapes, sizes, and conditions thanks to the different wheat and grain types and chemical formula. When I use flax, as an example, the flavor and health benefits are enhanced, but I don't get the same quality of rise. Adding ground corn also changes things. Rice... I haven't tried yet, but it is definitely on the "ToDo" list. Pasta, same thing. I make some darn tasty pasta as well...
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Post by keen101 (Biolumo / Andrew B.) on Jul 23, 2010 11:13:54 GMT -5
The best cracker i ever had for eating with cheese was made from flax seed. I haven't been able to find it again though, unfortunately.
Can enough rye be grown in a large pot or barrel to be harvested for a loaf of bread? My favourite bread is pumpernickel/dark rye.
...I was interested a little in the perennial rye. but i never got around to asking how the project turned out, or if anyone was willing to still share seed.
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Post by blueadzuki on Jul 23, 2010 12:24:04 GMT -5
Can enough rye be grown in a large pot or barrel to be harvested for a loaf of bread? My favourite bread is pumpernickel/dark rye. . I tend to doubt it. The best, most productive grain strains tend to have a net grain multiplication (the number of grains per plant you get out per grain you actually planted of between 32x-96x, but that is under absoulutey ideal condions. In a barrel you are unlikey to get anywhere near that, not only will the plants either be sparse or severely overcrowded which cuts down on side shoots and hence extra ears. You also may have a problem getting good full pollination, since rye, like most grasses is basically wind pollinated the smaller the space its growing in, the more pollen when released is going to not come down anyhwere near the wheat, and the poorer your pollination is likey to be and the less grain you will ultimatedly get. about ten years ago I planted a large pot (1/2 whiskey barrel) full of barley I had got in colledge of a type I nicknamed "Egyptian Papyrus" (basically sorta a six row barley ananlouge to the "compactum type wheats" but with extra long and heavy awns. Not unusual in its productivity, but really aesthetcally pleasing) when the year was over I worked out my yield per grain planted at it came out as about 4x (incidentally pretty close to what the Romans used to get out of thier emmer) Unless you are very lucky that's youd probably get about the same, so to get about a pound of flower (roughly what is needed to make a "standard size" bread loaf you'd need room to plant about 4oz of seed which takes up a lot more room than a barrel. Also that's just to make one loaf of bread per year with no seed left over to re-plant A years work for one loaf of bread. Also if you are planning on a grow your own rye loaf, you shoud probably be aware that most rye bread recipies use varying amounts of wheat flour as well (often wheat is the majority grain) though it is possible to make bread out of rye alone (I know this from personal experiance I have a granmother who is allergic to wheat (not gluten, wheat) so we got to a lot of healthfood stores to find her all rye bread) If you really want to try and grow a pot of rye for a loaf of bread, feel free to try, but it's probably more work than it's worth. On my grain side I have alwaus had some slight interest in trying out shot wheat ( Triticum avestium var. sphaerocoocum) I don't know why but it always sounded really interesting to me. I've never done it though. I am aware Kusa sells shot wheat (they call it "globe wheat" but its the right species and variety) but It just doesn't feel righ to me to buy a large quantity of fairly rare grain knowing that 90% of the wheat I want, and 100% of the six or seven other wheats in that set are just going to be thrown away by me due to lack of space. But if anoyne out there ever does try out the ambassador set and they find at the end of the year they have a little shot wheat left over, let me know.
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Post by spacecase0 on Jul 23, 2010 17:36:06 GMT -5
I am aware Kusa sells shot wheat (they call it "globe wheat" but its the right species and variety) but It just doesn't feel righ to me to buy a large quantity of fairly rare grain knowing that 90% of the wheat I want, and 100% of the six or seven other wheats in that set are just going to be thrown away by me due to lack of space. But if anoyne out there ever does try out the ambassador set and they find at the end of the year they have a little shot wheat left over, let me know. I have that set of seeds, they are frozen right now, I am going to try planting some grains indoors very soon, if that works out, then I will grow out some of the rare ones and be able to grow whatever ones people want. has anyone tried growing wheat indoors ?
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Post by blueadzuki on Jul 23, 2010 20:26:39 GMT -5
I've done it though admittedly mostly for the cat (the "cat grass" sold for pets is usally just wheat, the same as the stuff sold in little boxed for people who wand to grow thier own wheatgrass juice). provided you have the space, it's doable. Pollination of course can be a bit tricky in the absence of wind but you can usually make do with a good strong stand fan. Also bear in mind that some peaty/high humus soil mixtures can be a bit deficient in absorbable silicon so wheat grown in that can get a little softer and floppier than that grown outside, and unless you supplement it is possible for indoor wheat to literally collapse under it's own weight (though I admit that having said this I have no idea how one would supplement silicon, as I am not sure that bottles of monosilonic acid (the silicon compound that plants can actually absorb are even commecially available) Actually given some of the problems a lot of people on this forum seem to have with thier wheat crops I'm actually suprised that a lot more people haven't expressed interest in shot wheat (and no I'm not trying to shill). From what I understand it's very drought tolerant (being adapted to some of the more arid portions of northern India, it'd pretty much have to be, and it's very short both of stature and ear size (it's sorta considered an Indian analouge to the "club" wheats of Europe and North America, which would sound like good defense against high winds/lodging. Sounds right up a lot of us growers alley.
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Post by mjc on Jul 23, 2010 21:46:05 GMT -5
(though I admit that having said this I have no idea how one would supplement silicon, as I am not sure that bottles of monosilonic acid (the silicon compound that plants can actually absorb are even commecially available) Probably the easiest way to supplement silicon would be adding food grade diatomaceous earth to the mix...probably start with a couple of tablespoons per pot.
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Post by blueadzuki on Jul 23, 2010 22:02:47 GMT -5
(though I admit that having said this I have no idea how one would supplement silicon, as I am not sure that bottles of monosilonic acid (the silicon compound that plants can actually absorb are even commecially available) Probably the easiest way to supplement silicon would be adding food grade diatomaceous earth to the mix...probably start with a couple of tablespoons per pot. That sounds good on the surface except the silicon in diatomaceous earth is mostly in the form of silica and alumino-silica and hence not bio-avaible to plants or us (we get the silica we need mosty from ingesting grains (which keep some of thier absorbed silica in the form of organosilicates) much as there are only a few organisms with the ability to turn atmosperic nitrogen into absorbable nitrates, there are only a few organisms (again mostly bacteria) that can convert silica into absorbable, usable forms. Edible diatomaceous earth may be good for cleaning out your system but it doesnt up your body's silicon supply one iota.
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Post by spacecase0 on Jul 25, 2010 10:44:31 GMT -5
the "globe wheat" is planted in a 14" pot inside and in front of in a sunny window, not we wait for a harvest...
I added some almost powdered sand and diatomaceous earth to the potting soil in case the plants can get to it.
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Post by blueadzuki on Jul 25, 2010 14:18:35 GMT -5
the "globe wheat" is planted in a 14" pot inside and in front of in a sunny window, not we wait for a harvest... I added some almost powdered sand and diatomaceous earth to the potting soil in case the plants can get to it. great let me know in a couple of months how it went.
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