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Post by mayz on May 2, 2012 5:58:52 GMT -5
Hi all
I'm a new member I lives in Western Europe and I'm interested about breeding of Sweet corn and Cucurbita maxima.
Two year ago I had crossed a black mexican with ae (amylose extender) wx (waxy) line. Then had selected the sweet kernel in the F2 segregation. And now I will be interested to introduce new genes of anthocyanin synthesis so I search sweet corn like ruby queen, double red,... but in europe it seems really difficult to find these lines.
Have you got an idea for me? Thanks Mayz
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Post by johninfla on May 2, 2012 6:10:34 GMT -5
I don't know about sweet corn input but for the anthocyanins have you thought about Peruvian Maiz Morado?
John
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Post by samyaza on May 3, 2012 16:27:04 GMT -5
You have to choose between red and purple. An explanation about colors in corn : scientist.wetpaint.com/page/Mendelian+Genetics+of+CornAnother thing to know about the color the year the cross is made : So, it means both the aleurone and the endosperm color has a color depending on the male from which the pollen comes, more than just the female parent as for tomatoes, potatoes and others. I experienced it in 2011, with corn I couldn't prevent from crossing : a yellow pop corn parent named "Tom Pouce" near a Black Aztec gave birth to a few black kernels on my pop corn. I'll try to sow them this year to see what I could get from that cross. In fact, I grew 4 varieties, Tom Pouce, I've grown for several years, Black Aztec, Oaxacan Green and Bloody Butcher. I got the three colored from a swap where I only asked for Black Aztec. My favourite, by far, is Bloody Butcher. It's the tallest, most resistant, productive corn I've ever grown. No one-ear dwarf at all ! I suspect it to be deep-rooted so it would be more resistant to drought. It had no trace of smut. It's just late, but it's no problem to me as it's ready before the first frosts. The other two looked degenerated, surely because of lack of heterosis. That uncontrolled orgy must have given them some again ;D The strange thing about it is that Alan said the green color was made of a yellow endosperm with purple aleurone. What I experienced with my Tom Pouce x Black Aztec cross makes me doubt about it. I didn't find another source for that information. My father has a yellow sweet corn I'll try to cross with Bloody Butcher, which is now sweet. If you can't find the variety you need, just do it yourself, it's fun !
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Post by keen101 (Biolumo / Andrew B.) on May 3, 2012 19:40:24 GMT -5
mayz, it would be helpful to know if your inquiry about anthocyanin production was in refrence to in the seeds or in the foliage and/or husks. Double Red Sweet Corn is the best one i know of for all of these traits. It might be worth the risk of trying to purchase some from the U.S. even if customs might take it away.
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Post by mayz on May 4, 2012 5:07:29 GMT -5
My goal is to introduce several endosperm mutant genes (ae, wx, su, se, sh2) and several anthocyanidin synthesis genes (cyanidin and pelargonidin and a maximum of regulator genes of the anthocyanin pathway). Then selected for red extra sweet viable kernels and presence of red pigments in all tissues.
sh2 gene is problematic as its tightly linked to a1 (anthocyanin less 1) in majority of sh2 supersweet inbreeds. Does anybody know an exception sh2A1?
some references signals that Mirai corn have the genotype susesh2. Does anybody have more info about Mirai genotype?
Finaly I have found Double Red at an american dealer that send his merchandises outside America.
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Post by Andre on Jul 5, 2013 4:53:06 GMT -5
I'd say that the Oaxacan green coloration is due to blue pericarp over yellow endosperm. Because every kernel on the cob has the blue coloration, which is then modified visually by the underlying endosperm and/or aleurone colors. This link says that " All kernels produced on an ear of corn would be expected to have the same pericarp color." I suppose this is the same for endosperm color so why the Oaxacan green corn does not have uniform green color kernels (as you can see in my picture below) ? Attachments:
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Post by mayz on Jul 5, 2013 6:29:43 GMT -5
[/a] says that " All kernels produced on an ear of corn would be expected to have the same pericarp color." I suppose this is the same for endosperm color so why the Oaxacan green corn does not have uniform green color kernels (as you can see in my picture below) ?[/quote] Salut André Pericarp is maternal tissue. Thus genetically defines only by the genotype of the corn plant bearing the ear. Endosperm results from the fecondation of two female nucleus by pollen nucleus. Thus endosperm color is governed by male and female genotypes. Typical example is bicolor(white-yellow)ear = xenia effect. Moreover pigments can also accumulate in aleurone. As the endosperm is triploid, the intensity of color varies with the genotype (yyY, yYY, YYY). Already three shade with only one gene... Add colors of aleurone and pericarp... and heaps of colors appear
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Post by Andre on Jul 5, 2013 8:38:01 GMT -5
Crystal clear ! ;-) Thank you Mayz ! One more question though... With this little kid game I tried different color mixes and by mixing red and yellow (which are quiet present in corn cv) you obtain orange (which is quiet rare). Same for yellow and blue which give green (very rare too). How can we explain that ?
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Post by Joseph Lofthouse on Jul 5, 2013 9:09:23 GMT -5
With this little kid game I tried different color mixes and by mixing red and yellow (which are quiet present in corn cv) you obtain orange (which is quiet rare). Same for white and blue which give light blue (very rare too). How can we explain that ? Commercial corn has selected against colored pericarp. It's a trait that's quite common in wilder relatives. Here is red pericarp over yellow endosperm: And more variety of the same: Here's a photo of glass gem corn (Andre: sorry I'm being slow getting seed to you. The brilliant summer sunlight and extreme temperatures (for my Viking genes) saps my ambition.) The cob to the far left is blue due to [deleted questionable interpretation]. The other cobs that have blue kernels are due to aleurone coloring. I believe that the cob on the far right has a red pericarp. The cob next to it has a pink pericarp. So on that Oaxacan Green cob. [Deleted questionable interpretation of colors].
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Post by blueadzuki on Jul 5, 2013 9:24:49 GMT -5
With this little kid game I tried different color mixes and by mixing red and yellow (which are quiet present in corn cv) you obtain orange (which is quiet rare). Same for white and blue which give light blue (very rare too). How can we explain that ? Commercial corn has selected against colored pericarp. It's a trait that's quite common in wilder relatives. Here is red pericarp over yellow endosperm: And more variety of the same: Here's a photo of glass gem corn (Andre: sorry I'm being slow getting seed to you. The brilliant summer sunlight and extreme temperatures (for my Viking genes) saps my ambition.) The cob to the far left is blue due to pericarp color. The light blue kernels have a white endosperm and colorless aleurone. The purple kernels have a pink aleurone and a white endosperm. The green kernels have yellow endosperm. The other cobs that have blue kernels are due to aleurone coloring. The cob on the far right has a red pericarp. The cob next to it has a pink pericarp. You sure about that blue one? That looks like aleurone coloring to me, In fact I'm not sure that blue is even FOUND in the pericarp (red yes, pink yes, purple and brown sure, but not blue) what I see is blue kernels with blue alurone, pruple ones with an alurone that has both blue AND pink and greens that are blue over yellow.
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Post by Andre on Jul 5, 2013 9:32:57 GMT -5
Very nice pix Joseph ! (I'll wait for the glass gem seeds until cooler temperatures comes ) More seriously, how can you, guys, identify the origin of the color ?
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Post by mayz on Jul 5, 2013 9:48:33 GMT -5
More seriously, how can you, guys, identify the origin of the color ? with surgery
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Post by Joseph Lofthouse on Jul 5, 2013 10:00:10 GMT -5
You sure about that blue one? That looks like aleurone coloring to me, In fact I'm not sure that blue is even FOUND in the pericarp (red yes, pink yes, purple and brown sure, but not blue) what I see is blue kernels with blue alurone, pruple ones with an alurone that has both blue AND pink and greens that are blue over yellow. Hmmm. Thanks. If the coloring was due to blue aleurone, that would mean that the mother was homozygous for blue aleurone, and that blue aleurone is dominant. That works for me. The blue kernels on the other 3 cobs are definitely due to aleurone coloring. It's much easier to select for aleurone coloring than pericarp color. Yay! I will keep that in mind when I start trying to incorporate this color into my popcorn.
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Post by blueadzuki on Jul 5, 2013 14:36:50 GMT -5
That comment also applies to the Oaxacan green cob the blue is aleurone not pericarp (pure OG's pericarp is usually colorless to a very pale brown) the actual colors are Blue aleurone over yellow endosperm ==> Green. Blue aleurone over white endosperm and colorless aleurone ==> Blue Pink and blue aleurone and white endosperm ==> Purple/Turquoise (depending on whether there is more blue or more pink) Blue aleurone over blue aleurone ==> Darker blue (a lot of the corn colors are partially dominant so two blues means a darker blue) Blue aleurone over darker yellow endoserm ==> Darker Green (like the blue the yellow in the endosperm can vary widely in intensity the more yellow the base is, the darker the green will be) The amount of soft starch in the corn will also affect the color, since soft starch tends to be whiter (because of it's opacity) than hard starch colors with a soft starch base (like on the crown of a dent corn, or the near dent flint I think of as "cap flint" (basically the difference between this and dent is that the hard starch continues up to the crown an makes a thin wall between the soft starch and the aleurone, so the kernel doesn't "dent" and/or "shell flint" (same as cap but the soft starch basically fills the entire inside, not just the top. I've never seen them in person but I imagine that if you crossed a green kerneled corn with one of the rarish corns which have colored ENDOSPERM (purple seems the most common of these) other colors could be formed (brownish shades?) And getting back to where this all started, ironically, while orange is rare, it is one of the few colors you can actually get TWO ways. Most oranges come from the pericarp (where the orange is simply a shade in the red spectrum). But you can also get a sort of orange/peach color when you have a pink/magenta aleurone over a yellow endosperm (the orange kernels that sometimes show up in some Glass Gem strains are this kind. In fact you can see a few orangey ones in the posted picture) Actually I have a theory that may explain some of the confusion here. It's just a theory, as I don't know enough about corn genetics or kernel anatomy to confirm it. On another thread, someone mentioned that one of the unusual traits of one of the isolated South American corn populations was multiple aleurone layers. The thing is......I think some of our corns have multiple layers as well, or at least two. In my searches I have seen some color combinations/patterns that can ONLY be explained this way. This is especially true of the "pattern" aleurones. In my stippled corns I have noticed that some seem to have the stipples "deeper" than the others. More importantly I have sometimes seed kernels with TWO stipple patterns or a stipple and a Navajo-style color cap. And on rare occasions those two patterns have been different colors (for example in the stuff I have on hand, I have a kernel with blue stipples and a middle intensity purple cap (white base). Read more: alanbishop.proboards.com/thread/6258/anthocyanin-lines#ixzz2YCRYbzuz
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Post by Andre on Jul 5, 2013 16:22:25 GMT -5
More seriously, how can you, guys, identify the origin of the color ? with surgeryIt seems that Joseph and Blue can identify the origin of colors without any surgery even on a simple picture. How do you do that ?
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