|
Post by Drahkk on Feb 18, 2013 21:53:37 GMT -5
This is why I love this forum. I've never heard of Thorny Olive before, but I think you hit the nail on the head. That looks exactly like what I've been picking. Thanks, guys.
And I agree, Ox. They are good. Glad to know they're healthy, too.
MB
|
|
|
Post by steev on Feb 18, 2013 23:05:44 GMT -5
I've mentioned my non-fruiting Autumn Olive before (unproductive waste of space!); I'd like it a lot more if it gave me any fruit whatsoever. At least my Trebizond Date produced one fruit this year. It's not like I require a LOT of encouragement.
|
|
|
Post by MikeH on Feb 19, 2013 5:49:54 GMT -5
Agreed but I think you've got a picture of Autumn Olive Elaeagnus umbellata. We pick it every fall and the fruit and leaf looks exactly like the picture that you put up.
|
|
|
Post by oxbowfarm on Feb 19, 2013 10:03:44 GMT -5
Its possible, I just grabbed the pic from the Invasive Plants of the Eastern US' thorny olive page. Thorny olive doesn't grow around here (yet) to my knowledge. The one thing that makes me think it is a legit pic of E pungens is the persistent calyx or whatever that is on the fruit tip which seems characteristic of E pungens and I've never seen on Autumn olive. But maybe it happens and I wasn't paying attention.
|
|
|
Post by Marches on Feb 15, 2015 16:46:14 GMT -5
Grape breeders have been sowing vitis seeds along roadsides in the Midwest for decades as well as selecting from wild plants found in woods. I've got plants growing from seeds of a Riverbank vine (Vitis riparia) found I'm Quebec that unusually for the species had low acidity, no herbaceous flavour and was edible in its raw, uncooked state.
Around here I've scattered apple and cherries that grow well in the wild here. I've also dispersed quinoa to give the wild birds something to feed on and planted raspberry and gooseberry plants I no longer needed in the woods. Whilst I'm not against planting non-native species, I remain weary in case something is potentially a problem species. Vitis riparia could spread easily I think and would occupy a similar niche to English ivy (Hedera helix), but could harbour diseases for cultivated grapes and damage our fledgling vineyards and conservationists would attack it simply for being an alien. Same as they do with budleia davidii - a species that usually invades demolition sites and waste ground that formerly had buildings on it and turns it into a sanctuary for butterflies. Yet it's an invasive thus bad? I don't get it, it doesn't even invade natural habitats, it's almost entirely found in cities in proximity to concrete and buildings.
|
|
|
Post by prairiegarden on May 15, 2015 9:03:54 GMT -5
What about aronia melanocarpa? Supposedly highly nutritious, especially in antioxidants and vitamin C but unpalatable raw. Highly ornamental brilliant red leaves in the fall, although it's not particularly exceptional to look at at any other time. It's another one that's considered a weed some places, but apparently is grown extensively in Europe and someone in Ontario is selling the juice for absurd prices like $100 for 6 -12 oz bottles. I got a bush last year but I don't think it survived the winter, didn't get it in the ground early enough, although I got a dozen seeds that I'm not sure what to do with.
WHERE or where do you find Trebizond date? One place used to sell it but they say they don't anymore and in any case they don't ship across the border. Baker Creek had something but the identification seemed a bit iffy, and in any case, they were out of whatever the seed was.
Dahlia tubers are edible, apparently at one time they were considered as a possible substitute for potatoes, but they went on to be developed for decorative glory rather than edible qualities.
Job's tears would maybe work well for people with longer growing season, it's a major crop in Asia (look up chinese pearl barley).
I got a bunch of sweet lupin seed from Australia that you don't have to rinse and rinse that I'm trying this year, but it may need a longer growing season than I have. You also have to keep it well away from any other lupin, apparently, or it will revert to the bitter type. AND people with peanut allergies may react to it, but the seeds are highly nutritious and virtually nobody thinks of lupin as edible, since the ornamental sorts are considered to be poisonous.
|
|
|
Post by blueadzuki on May 15, 2015 18:26:47 GMT -5
Job's tears would maybe work well for people with longer growing season, it's a major crop in Asia (look up chinese pearl barley). The one big problem with that is that the kind of Job's tear grown for food is a different kind than the conventional one, and that kind is very, very hard to get. The "classic" one is just as edible, but the seed coat is a LOT harder, too hard for most at home milling equipment (basically you need a pair of pliers to crack it enough to get the kernel out, or a BIG millstone) So unless you can find someone who has the right kind (there someone on SSE who does, but while he can offer small amounts, I doubt he would be able to supply enough to plant a crop of eating size, or even meet everyone's needs if a lot of people asked him at once) or have the patience to do what I did (comb through bins of Chinese pearl barley in Chinatown looking for the odd kernel the milling machines missed until you have a handful.) it's not a really viable option as a food source.
|
|
|
Post by prairiegarden on May 16, 2015 6:45:57 GMT -5
There you go learned something else on these forums, i had no idea about that! I was looking for it in online health food stores to try it but everyone seemed to be out of it, now it seems as though not worth it. Thank you.
|
|
|
Post by MikeH on May 16, 2015 7:41:27 GMT -5
What about aronia melanocarpa? Supposedly highly nutritious, especially in antioxidants and vitamin C but unpalatable raw. Highly ornamental brilliant red leaves in the fall, although it's not particularly exceptional to look at at any other time. It's another one that's considered a weed some places, but apparently is grown extensively in Europe and someone in Ontario is selling the juice for absurd prices like $100 for 6 -12 oz bottles. I got a bush last year but I don't think it survived the winter, didn't get it in the ground early enough, although I got a dozen seeds that I'm not sure what to do with. WHERE or where do you find Trebizond date? One place used to sell it but they say they don't anymore and in any case they don't ship across the border. Baker Creek had something but the identification seemed a bit iffy, and in any case, they were out of whatever the seed was. Dahlia tubers are edible, apparently at one time they were considered as a possible substitute for potatoes, but they went on to be developed for decorative glory rather than edible qualities. Job's tears would maybe work well for people with longer growing season, it's a major crop in Asia (look up chinese pearl barley). I got a bunch of sweet lupin seed from Australia that you don't have to rinse and rinse that I'm trying this year, but it may need a longer growing season than I have. You also have to keep it well away from any other lupin, apparently, or it will revert to the bitter type. AND people with peanut allergies may react to it, but the seeds are highly nutritious and virtually nobody thinks of lupin as edible, since the ornamental sorts are considered to be poisonous. Trebizond date - Naming on this one gets confusing really fast. Best to go by its latin Elaeagnus angustifolia var. orientalis. For seeds, you might try - encrypted.google.com/search?q=lotus+tree+fruit#q=%22lotus+tree+fruit%22. PM me if you are interested in replacing your aronia - I've got a seedling from Golden Bough - www.goldenboughtrees.ca/native.shtml - that I've been layering and I've just potted up six rooted subdivisions. Hopefully, they survive the shock. I also have Aronia Viking. Also Prunus virginiana "Robert" - www.jeffriesnurseries.com/p41-46.pdf Sweet Lupin - From experience, I'd say the yields aren't worth it, at least not in southern Ontario, and it's an annual which makes the energy in/energy out ratio not so good. The aronia is a much better idea. The berries make a good jelly and a juice (when sweetened). It looks just like another scrubby roadside bush.
|
|
|
Post by blueadzuki on May 16, 2015 18:35:55 GMT -5
There you go learned something else on these forums, i had no idea about that! I was looking for it in online health food stores to try it but everyone seemed to be out of it, now it seems as though not worth it. Thank you. Try a place that specializes in Asian food stuff. Depending on HOW you want to eat it, it's usually available puffed too. I actually haven't eaten it, but based on the fact it's called Chinese pearl barley, I assume it's mostly used in soups, with the puffed version eaten more like a cereal (I think some people also make it into a porridge). But if you are trying to GROW it don't bother with any food venue. JT isn't like wheat or corn or rye or (brown/black) rice; it's ALWAYS sold for food pre hulled and polished. As I said, the only reason I have any is because some plants use milling machinery that is a little too loose to catch every grain, and I have the patience to look at bins of the stuff every week and pick out the odd one that slips by. And fewer do with every season (either the machinery is getting better or the stores are becoming more demanding about not buying "lower grade" supplies. BTW just set up the pot and planted my handful. Just don't necessarily expect me to be able to supply seed any time soon (it was a VERY small handful, I usually only get about 25% germination out of the herb store stuff anyway (a lot of the seed that makes it through unpolished still doesn't make it through uncracked) and in any case I'm a little far north to get good Job's tears harvests anyway. (I CAN get them sometimes, but it sort of depends on how long the warm season lasts. I did them in a big pot though, so hopefully if they are almost there when it gets too cold, I can take them inside to finish.)
|
|
|
Post by prairiegarden on May 16, 2015 23:36:08 GMT -5
Mike, a most generous offer thank you. There is a place in Ontario which offers aronia as seedlings but they are a) unnamed b) only available in lots of 25 or more( WAY more than I need) and c) out of them anyway for two years running now, apparently you have to order them in January.
The trebizond date I couldn't find at all. Although eleagnus augustifolia is relatively easy, the variety seems not. A year or so ago I was looking for them and for shipova for weeks. Found shipova on Vancouver Island but after all that, gave it a pass, takes way too long to come into production.
I've got a bunch of sweet lupin started so will see how they go, had to transplant them into bigger containers and they are pretty much a tap root plant so will see if they forgive being manhandled so much. They were supposed to be in the ground by now but it's supposed to hail and freeze in the next few days. If nothing else, if they survive, they will be pretty and supply some nitrogen to the soil...
What about russian almond? It's a very decorative plant, supposed to be about as tough as seabuckthorn. There seems to be some disagreement about edibility but as long as the nut isn't too bitter? I am getting some of those this year if I can find someone to help plant them...
blueadzuki I wonder what sort of Job's tears the ones Fedco has are. Any way of telling? It really sounds as though it isn't worth the effort for my situation though. If it won't be reliable for you it will likely be totally disinterested in growing in my neck of the woods.
What about cowpeas or pigeon peas? do either of these self seed or are they dependent on people to do it all for them now? Legend has it that the many in the south survived the aftermath of the civil war because the northern soldiers didn't recognize cowpeas as something edible.
|
|
|
Post by blueadzuki on May 17, 2015 8:02:05 GMT -5
I'd be almost 100% certain that the version fedco sells are the "classic" version. Firstly, as I said that is pretty much the only kind usually sold as seed. Secondly I just went and read the copy on the listing on the site, and three words/phrases stick out, "ornamental", "bulbous seeds" and "strung as beads on necklaces". Unless the whole copy is boilerplate (that is, they put the description together from standardized information on job's tears in general, rather than take a look at what they were actually selling), all of those phrases indicate the standard kind.
Beyond that, there really is no way to tell without seeing a picture of the actual seed in stock (as opposed to the picture of a plant they have up).Face to face it's pretty easy. The "classic version" is smooth on the outside and rather larger and fatter. Well, the common one is (I keep talking as if there are only two strains of Job's tear in the world, but there are dozens, if not hundreds. It's just that in my life, I have only seen two* in person.) The eating kind on the other hand tends to be a bit smaller, a bit thinner and the shell around the seed is marked by longitudinal grooves. And no one would use the eating one to make a necklace, it's too brittle (remember how I said you need pliers to crack the shell on the common kind? the shell on the eating kind can be crushed by pressing it between your fingers.) Though that does bring up an important point about the jewelry one's. Because the hole in the seed you string through is completely natural, the actually kernel sort of wraps around it and running a string through the hole doesn't touch it. So a seed that has been strung us still just as viable and growable as one that has not. Not necessarily useful for stealth crop growing, but it might come in handy if you need to hide your seed supply (if one was in a situation where one was concerned with people breaking in and stealing one's harvest, I doubt many would see your beaded curtains and love necklaces as food.)
If you think you are too cool for growing Job's tears as a stealth crop, pigeon peas are also a no go; they also need a long warm season. Cowpeas are a bit of a maybe zone. There are cowpeas that are short enough season and low enough external effort to be usable as a "stealth crop" around here, but they are far in the minority. Every year for a while now, I have taken a selection of the random cowpeas I find as I do my seed hunts and planted them in my garden usually around fifty to a hundred or so each year. Out of all of those, only about six or seven plants have ever actually made seeds for me and only ONE has ever made more than one or two pods in a season. If you were looking for stealth, you also might have to confine yourself to the smaller seeded ones. Big seeds tend to make big plants which are 1. more obvious as something that probably isn't indigenous to the area and may be food) and 2. tend to require a lot more hand to hand input (ideally a stealth crop should probably be something you don't actually have to do anything with between sowing and harvest; something that basically can sprout, grow and reproduce with no input from you.) It's sort of the same stumbling block I have/would have with the rice beans I play around with. If I lived somewhere far enough south that any and all strains of rice beans were covered season wise, they'd be a GREAT stealth crop, since except for the flowers themselves, they look almost exactly like fuzzy/wild bean or American groundnut, which are practically native (and even then you'd need to be a raider who was knowledgeable enough to know wild bean flowers are single and pink/purple and America groundnut are rust red to find anything odd about plants with yellow ones.) and the vines grow like weeds. But if you don't, like me, you have to be very selective about what kind you use, because most will just make leaves up here, no flowers no pods (and since it sounds like you are ever farther north, the few I have found that do work marginally for me probably wouldn't work for you either.)
Actually fuzzy bean and American groundnut would themselves be good choices, as both are edible. Though since most of the food value in AG is in the tubers (the seeds are edible, but many vines are triploid and sterile) if you were worried about hiding your crops it might not be a good choice for somewhere where people could see you going to dig it up.
*Well, three actually. Back when I was a kid, I once found one seed of a third type (also round but a lot smaller than the standard version) in a bead shop; inside of a vial of loose "Christmas beads", a kind of strand sold by African bead dealers made of various types of tiny "trade beads"; drawn "seed beads" (at the time I am talking about, usually mostly actual antique Venetian material, but nowadays, made up mostly of modern drawn seed beads from the Czech republic.) small antique pressed Czech glass beads, small indigenous powdered glass beads from Ghana and often a sprinkling of other odds and ends (shell beads, plastic beads etc.) However I have no memory of actually getting a plant from that, so either I lost the seed before I planted it (I was a kid, remember?) or I planted it and it didn't come up.
|
|
|
Post by eastex on Jan 9, 2016 20:01:13 GMT -5
There are a few versions of creeping bramble that produce fruits and no one would know to look for the berries under all the leaves. Camassia Quamash is a beautiful native prairie flower that has tubers as sweet a the best sweet potato if you cook them long and low. These are the most recent additions to my very small front yard food forest. Saffron crocus, garlic chives, tulips are edible too, but go with the lighter pigmented ones. Many of my friends who live in a hoity toidy neighborhood with HOA rules and regulations have come to me for stealth gardening ideas. It's kind of fun to come up with decorative/hidden food.
|
|
|
Post by prairiegarden on Jan 12, 2016 13:45:02 GMT -5
Discussing the topic the other day and someone said they were mixing non edibles in with the edibles including some fairly drastic ones such as castor bean, but not poison hemlock or anything like that. ( Castor bean might make adults only severely sick but they are said to be deadly to children, so that might end up having worse consequences than intended.) Admittedly they had been robbed recently (which is how the topic came up) and were not full of the milk of human kindness but I wondered if anyone else was mixing things up just to make intruders think twice about trying something they don't know.
|
|
|
Post by flowerweaver on Jan 12, 2016 18:38:31 GMT -5
When I lived in the big city the only sun I had was in the front yard. I didn't mind when the homeless would harvest something, or when someone asked first, but once someone in an expensive SUV came and picked everything! So I started growing the vegetables and flowers mixed together. It was pretty, and did cut down on lost produce.
|
|