|
Post by hortusbrambonii on Jan 25, 2014 16:40:01 GMT -5
I more or less accidentally entered the (in)famous glass gem hype when I got some seeds from a seedswap with homegrower, and made it a project to try to grow them out even though I knew it would not be ideal for our climate. Most of the plants weren't ready yet in November, but I did have some beautiful ears of ornamental corn though... (And seeds enough to share for those still interested in the hype.) But one plant took my attention, it was the first one to ripen (it was completely ripe with dying plant at the beginning of october) and had a different look, with a lot of yellow, red and almost black kernels that now seem to keep their color more than the real glass gem ones. It turned out to be not a bad popcorn too (95% on 20 kernels, and I'm bad at popping corn!) Which makes it interesting: a beautiful popcorn different from the ones I know, that seems to ripen well in our climate... If the offspring would be likewise that is. Since it was a lot easier than the others, and there was no other corn around, I suppose it just self-pollinated. which brings me to the real question. I know that for seed-saving and maintaining a healthy gene-pool you need a lot of plants (around 200 or so), so I suppose that starting from one self-pollinating plant is probably not the best idea. What are the problems that could arise if I tried to grow out this one and try to stabilise it? What's the problem with inbred lines in corn genetics?
|
|
|
Post by oxbowfarm on Jan 25, 2014 17:25:53 GMT -5
It would be totally possible to grow out this corn next year with just this seed, but you may already begin to see signs of inbreeding depression, smaller plants, weaker plants, low yields. Corn is highly subject to inbreeding depression and a few generations of just seed decended from that one plant is probably going to result in a really sad "variety".
What I'd do is try and add in just enough outside genetics to maintain diversity without swamping out the traits you like. Try and find candidate varieties that complement what you have there. Joseph's popcorn sounds like a good match or Joseph's Glass Gem influenced popcorn even moreso. You could even continue to use some selected GG plants. Start a few early in pots and transplant them into your popcorn patch to try and match pollen timing.
Maybe plant half the patch in your seed, half the patch in Joseph's popcorn, and detassel the Joseph's. If you saved the seed from the whole patch you'd have half the population decended from your original plant, and half of it a hybrid between your plant and joseph's. Since Joseph's corn is so diverse, you'd probably have enough diversity at that point to be OK to just select for the cob and kernel traits you liked from then on as long as you keep the population large enough.
|
|
|
Post by rowan on Jan 25, 2014 19:33:11 GMT -5
I'm not that inbreeding depression is always as bad as people say. 5 years ago I started out with 5 seeds of black waxy corn. I wasn't that impressed with it but I the next year I grew 20 seeds from one cob of that corn anyway. Every year since then I have taken 1 cob and grown the seeds and there is still no sign of inbreeding depression, and no-one else grows corn around here. The plants this year are bigger, better and healthier than ever, especially since I decided to plant a few other varieties this year and practically lost the lot. I still don't particularly like waxy corn but it has become an experiment to see how long it can go before depression kicks in.
|
|
|
Post by paquebot on Jan 25, 2014 20:34:06 GMT -5
If that plant was just one of a number of other corn plants, it would have received pollen from many of the others as well. Chance of getting the same results next year are remote.
Martin
|
|
|
Post by hortusbrambonii on Jan 26, 2014 6:32:35 GMT -5
So inbreeding depression can vary from case to case, even in corn? That's interesting, Rowan! I will just try and see what happens.
It was one plant in a group of around 50 GG plants, but it did flower and ripen at least a month before the other GG plants, who ranged from very late to disastrously late for our climate. Some other plants were even still flowering or in babycorn stage when they were killed by frost end november (while killing frost could be earlier in our climate), and the other ealier ones were just ripe at that moment, while this one plant (with 2 cobs) was ready already one month earlier. I don't think any regular GG plant was producing pollen at the moment, so that's why I suppose the plant to have self-pollinated.
If something interesting and similar to what I like comes from most of the plants next year, I will keep the line and try to preserve it as a stable genepool by adding genetic material from similar lines... But I'm too amateuristic and too sloppy a gardener to expect that I will be able to really staibilise a 'Brambonius' multicolor golden gem popcorn'... But who knows...
|
|
|
Post by mountaindweller on Aug 19, 2014 5:44:54 GMT -5
I read a bit around planning what to plant next spring... I find it quite interesting what Rowan said that inbreeding depression is not carved in stone. For a home gardener inbreeding depression is very annoying it makes seed saving cumbersome. Would it be possible to breed a corn without inbreeding depression? I know nothing about corn genes, maybe the question is stupid, but I would like such a corn.
|
|
|
Post by nicollas on Aug 19, 2014 6:21:18 GMT -5
Maybe it is worth growing it anyway even if it expresses imbreeding depression if you plan to use it to make hybrids ? i remember reading in Carole Deppe book that for farmer that want to make their own hybrid and for whom homogeneity is very important, that they could make more imbred pure lines as foundation for their hybrids;
|
|
|
Post by hortusbrambonii on Aug 19, 2014 9:26:03 GMT -5
snails killed my seedlings this spring. (since when do they eat corn seedlings?) But I have enough seeds to try again next year...
|
|
|
Post by Carol Deppe on Oct 10, 2014 1:54:19 GMT -5
I'd just go ahead and try it. Glass Gem may have so much genetic heterogeneity in it that even if you lose most of it by saving seed from the one ear, there may be enough genetic heterogeneity remaining to have a workable line. And that corn plant that performed well for you may have genes that particularly matter to you, which may matter more than greater genetic heterogeneity.
On the other hand, Glass Gem may have already been so highly selected for kernel type (other than color) that it has already lost pretty much all its genetic heterogeneity, in which case, you might not be hurting things much by saving ears from just one cob. I haven't grown GG, but nobody seems to be talking about how well it yields compared with most corns. Maybe there isn't much heterogeneity left to lose.
If you start with an optimally maintained op variety with lots of genetic heterogeneity, you can usually best keep the yield up by maintaining that genetic heterogeneity. But that may or may not be the situation with respect to Glass Gem as it exists now. And optimal yield isn't the issue. The issue is, if you start a line from this one ear, can you get a line that yields well enough so that you consider it worthwhile growing it?
Try it and see. I would just plant out the kernels, not cross them with anything. You like the beauty and culinary characteristics of what you have, and outcrosses are likely to mess that up. You might decide you need to outcross because the plants won't yield enough, but give them a chance to tell you what they think about the situation.
The problem with inbreeding in corn is that it usually gives you lower yield, weaker smaller plants, smaller ears, etc. If you inbreed in most heterogeneous corn material, the more rounds of inbreeding, the worse the yield, etc. Some highly inbred lines yield better than others, though. Rowan mentions inbreeding a wax corn generation after generation with no signs of inbreeding depression kicking in. I think that line was probably so highly inbred before he got it that inbreeding further isn't changing anything. But this wax line happens to be a line that yields decently as an inbred.
|
|