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Post by raymondo on Jan 29, 2014 2:24:47 GMT -5
You can buy raw milk and cream here in Australia (Victoria at least). It has to be marked "not for consumption", but people buy it to drink/eat. It can be purchased at some farmers markets and health food shops, so it is packaged in plastic containers like the stuff you buy in supermarkets. NSW is the same as Victoria. Same regulations it seems so you buy "bath milk", "cosmetic cream" and "body butter".
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coppice
gardener
gardening curmudgeon
Posts: 149
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Post by coppice on Jan 29, 2014 6:53:01 GMT -5
I can see both sides of this story. And remain puzzled that here (OH-USA) there are as many barriers to making cheese with raw milk.
I've also nursed folks with bone TB.
Them old sanitary (requiring pasturized milk) laws did a lot to get TB out of humans.
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Post by richardw on Jan 29, 2014 12:33:02 GMT -5
I now can also see both sides of this story which has got me thinking ,the regulations we have here in NZ are sensible thought out..... (wow did i say that ) but are been looked at by the Ministry of Primary Industries ,consultations in 2011 showed raw milk sales were more extensive than the ministry realised and many did not comply with the law. Nearly 1700 submissions were received, mostly in support of the continued sale. Raw milk is not allowed to be sold off farm only from the milking shed vat, when you take into account how the modern milk sheds are set up in that milk is instantly chilled within 30sec of leaving the cow the risks are very low,ok the most vulnerable consumers are young children, the frail elderly, pregnant women and anyone with a weakened immune system are more likely to get sick and their illness may be more severe,buts its about personal responsibly and education and not (("I might do something stupid and it's your fault for not preventing it"))as what steev wrote yesterday. Another risk is from TB ,this area has a low TB status and all cows in NZ are tested once a year but when you look at on average, a cow with TB in an udder is found about once every three years in New Zealand,thats 1 out of 6.5 million cows in NZ which is pretty tall odds and is a risk i'm happy to take for a product in which the health benefits far out way the risks.
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Post by oxbowfarm on Jan 29, 2014 12:42:34 GMT -5
The primary method folks are working around the raw milk laws in the US that I am aware of is the "cow-share" model. In which one in theory buys a "share" not unlike a CSA share of the milk harvest and then receives a regular distribution of milk. Most state regulators have taken a pretty dim view of these arrangements.
Our family's solution has been to purchase our own heifer calf, raise her up and milk her ourselves. We drink lots of raw milk and I am extremely confident in its healthfulness and sanitation since I do all the milking and cattle care. We do not sell milk or dairy products, and never will. Not because I think they are dangerous,but because I have no desire to get into a hassle with NY Ag and Markets. Obviously not many people have the option to do this, but its the best one IMO.
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Post by freeholder on Jan 29, 2014 14:35:22 GMT -5
That's why I keep goats -- so we'll have our own supply of healthy raw milk. I don't sell milk or any milk product (if someone wants raw milk, they can do the work and raise their own!).
Given that raw milk actually keeps better in the frig than pasteurized (enzymes in raw milk kill germs -- in pasteurized milk, these enzymes have been killed), I don't think pasteurization can legitimately be said to prevent disease in humans. Testing the cows (and goats) for disease makes more sense to me. Making sure, if you are going to buy milk, that you buy it from clean facilities, is also sensible (another reason why I won't sell milk -- I don't even have a proper barn right now, let alone a sterile milking parlor and milk room; I milk my goats outdoors).
All pasteurization does is kill germs in milk from unhealthy cows, and that's all it was ever intended to do. If the cows are healthy, their milk doesn't need to be pasteurized.
Kathleen
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Post by RpR on Jan 29, 2014 17:17:16 GMT -5
You pays your money and yous takes your chances.
Nothing wrong with that.
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Post by templeton on Jan 29, 2014 17:24:33 GMT -5
A most intersting discussion, as usual. Got me thinking about some of our other foodstuffs. I do recall a discussion on another aust forum with a member originally from the USA concerning jam making. No way was she going to trust just boiling up the jam, and jarring it with a lid. It then had to be processed for 20 minutes in a boiling water bath. She pointed to a considerable number of official food safety sites from the US that recommended just that. Made every cook book on my shelves a health risk. Litigation-shy, or one of those (unjustified) pieces of accepted wisdom like throwing away the shellfish that refuse to open when cooked, that just gain traction by being repeated so often? And don't get me started on the constant water drinking fad... T
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Post by Joseph Lofthouse on Jan 29, 2014 17:41:24 GMT -5
Around here, the 'commercial' way to bottle jams and pickles is to heat the solution to boiling and then pour it in jars. That creeps me out, and I won't buy from the lady that does it that way. She lost dozens of bottles the last time she came to the farmer's market, cause it was a rather hot day and a lot of her inventory unsealed. It wouldn't add hardly any extra work to her process to run them through a boiling water bath for ten minutes. Oh well.
Health wise they are probably fine, because she follows tested recipes on low-risk foods. I think the few extra minutes would go a long way to ensuring an even safer product and make errors in procedure more forgivable.
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Post by steev on Jan 29, 2014 19:54:18 GMT -5
Richardw: I think you may have misinterpreted what I posted; my comment was aimed at litigation, not regulations; which is to say, the sort of potential litigation that can drive regulation to prohibit, rather than regulate, or to regulate out of the running those not big enough to afford the regulatory pas-de-deux.
I think my point can be illustrated with perusal of several of 12540dumont's soapbox rants.
I think Joseph's last post illustrates the value of knowing your vendor, when dealing with one not big enough to be thoroughly involved in the regulatory system.
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Post by templeton on Jan 29, 2014 20:33:11 GMT -5
Around here, the 'commercial' way to bottle jams and pickles is to heat the solution to boiling and then pour it in jars. That creeps me out, and I won't buy from the lady that does it that way. She lost dozens of bottles the last time she came to the farmer's market, cause it was a rather hot day and a lot of her inventory unsealed. It wouldn't add hardly any extra work to her process to run them through a boiling water bath for ten minutes. Oh well. Health wise they are probably fine, because she follows tested recipes on low-risk foods. I think the few extra minutes would go a long way to ensuring an even safer product and make errors in procedure more forgivable. I do it like she does, boil your jam for 20 minutes to get it to setting point-at that stage it must be sterile. Pre heat the jars to sterilize them. Pour the jam in the jar, and put on the airtight screw on lid. As the jam cools, the lid pops down, as the cooling jam contracts. Vacum sealed. Never had an issue with any sort of infection or mould. I thought the whole point was that the osmotic pressure (?) of the high sugar content made it impossible for bugs to survive, meaning all the sterilizing was really a belt and braces approach anyway. Thinks, candied peel, prosciutto, salami, dried fruit, sun dried tomatoes, quince paste, etc etc. T
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Post by Joseph Lofthouse on Jan 29, 2014 20:44:25 GMT -5
The lady that sells bottled jams and pickles at my farmer's market is hyper-regulated. Everything she does is licensed, inspected, and monitored. Every step of every recipe and every ingredient is pre-approved by a bureaucrat.
Technically, her food isn't sterile, it has conditions inside the bottle that inhibits the growth of the living spores that are present: high concentrations of sugar and/or acid. The only thing that is means when the lid indents is that the air inside the jar was warmer than room temperature when the lid was put on.
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mich
gopher
Posts: 18
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Post by mich on Jan 29, 2014 22:16:55 GMT -5
I preserve jams, pickles, chutneys etc as Templeton does - as long as I use sterile equipment, the boiling mix is bottled in jars/bottles/lids that come (painfully) hot straight out of the oven after being sterilised and each is capped immediately, I don't think there's much chance of a problem. Sometimes I reckon it doesn't pay to ponder on the what-ifs too much. As long as you take the best care you can to ensure the safety of your food. I think there's more of a risk buying things from the deli than stuff I prepare myself, specially when I see food or utensils from one container migrate into another.
One thing I always do is check the sealed status of jars and bottles that I get from the supermarket - a number of times I've come across jars that aren't properly sealed - maybe because someone else took the lid off to smell or look at the contents!
The worst case of cross-contamination I ever saw was at a local fish and chip shop. The owners allowed their children in the cooking area and at one point a young child climbed up on the counter and started playing with the pre-prepared ingredients and putting them back in their bowls. Needless to say I haven't been back there... :-)
Cheers, Mich.
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Post by kevin8715 on Jan 29, 2014 22:23:31 GMT -5
Interesting thread. I love to drink raw milk but it is a bit pricey. Usually at minim I buy straus milk if not organic pastures. I like the idea that places can be open inspected by consumers which helps to decide if the risk is worth it.
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Post by davida on Jan 29, 2014 22:47:19 GMT -5
Good topic, Richardw. Your photo reminded me of seeing the locals in southern France get their wine in the same way.
We are still milking Peaches, the Jersey. She is at the end of the cycle but we are still milking because we value the milk so much. My daughter recently found milk kefir grains and we are beginning to see the health results. It's amazing to drink something with so much life in it; raw milk combined with the combination of yeast and bacteria.
As for the canning, we are extra careful and use the water bath because what we can is used for baby food for our grandchildren. Holly has made several excellent posts about canning in the past and someday, I will research her posts and read again how she checks for acid content to see if the water bath is safe or if pressure is needed.
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Post by steev on Jan 30, 2014 2:55:49 GMT -5
Personal care and attention are so much more useful than expecting a distant bureaucracy to look after our interests.
As I recall, we made jam, sealing it with paraffin; it not uncommonly had a bit of mold around the edge of that, when opened. Pretty sure nobody ever died as a result of their breakfast toast; may have done, but not before their late eighties.
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