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Post by Ecophreek on Jul 21, 2014 12:32:22 GMT -5
I know "dark" is a sujective term and is often in the eye of the beholder, but I am interested in the darker fleshed varieties out there. I have scoured the board and stumbled upon various member posts about the subject: Joseph's Post, CanadaMike's post, and a cpl others. From what I gathered Libbys pumpkin is Dickinson pumpkin but can't find any reference to 'ORANGE' or 'JAMBON DE HONGRIE' outside of this board. Honey Nut Butternut is also supposed to be of the darker flesh sort. Musquee de Provence is supposed to have deep dark orange flesh and in catalog pictures it does, but in internet pictures from growers it looks more like a buttery orange... To say I'm lost would be an understatement. I'm looking for moschatas because maximas would be really susceptible to vine borers which we have in spades here in Nashville. (plus the maxima stem just kinda grosses me out, shrug, childhood trauma or something I suppose). So what, in your opinion, are some of the darker fleshed varieties out there? Used to be here regularly a few years ago, then had my yard taken out by the Nashville flood. Finally found a new place and am looking to restart my projects
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Post by raymondo on Jul 21, 2014 18:03:23 GMT -5
Welcome back. I too am always on the lookout for dark-fleshed squash, either maxima or moschata. I find the squash I grow never have the the dark orange flesh depicted in photos - too tempting to touch up a photo I suppose. The Swiss web site KCB-Samen lists Orange, if that's of any help.
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Post by longhorngardens on Jul 21, 2014 19:53:25 GMT -5
The darkest I have grown is Greek Sweet Red.
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Post by oxbowfarm on Jul 22, 2014 12:43:51 GMT -5
You can get Dickinson Pumpkin from Sustainable Seed Co. I'd also recommend hitting up Joseph to see if he has some selections from dark orange lines, Joseph's moschatas are impressively early.
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Post by Ecophreek on Jul 23, 2014 8:20:46 GMT -5
Thanks for the info guys..
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Post by Joseph Lofthouse on Jul 27, 2014 16:26:39 GMT -5
I save seeds from a dark fleshed moschata squash that locally we call "buckskin". It looks like the classic Dickinson's pumpkin. Nasty watery as a fresh eating squash but the color is fabulous. I am constantly selecting for fruits to move the deep orange color into a squash that pleases my taste-buds better.
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Post by Ecophreek on Sept 1, 2014 0:32:41 GMT -5
Ok I've got Honey Nut Butternut, Musquee de Provence, Long Island Cheese, and Autumn Crown ordered. All are supposed to be dark fleshed. Could not find an american source for 'Orange' and unfortunately KCB-Samen (which has quite a few varieties I would love to have) doesn't ship to the US. Joseph, you have some very impressive results but I was hoping to go in the smaller direction while you are growing out the giants. I realize the MdP is a large pumpkin at 25 lbs but was hoping to only use it once at the beginning and bring down the size with the Honey Nut, hopefully capturing the genes for dark flesh in the process.
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Post by Joseph Lofthouse on Sept 1, 2014 0:53:31 GMT -5
Ecophreek: I pretty much expect that I'll get out of a population what I put into it... So adding large squash will result in lots of large squash in the offspring. They can be reselected for smaller fruits, but it takes consistent effort. [One year to make the cross. A second year to grow out the F1. And then finally in the 3rd year you can start selecting for fruit size. I dislike manual pollinations, but if I had it to do over again I'd definitely take that approach to make sure the genetics were mixed from the start.] One issue that I have with that is the plants that provide the most return on investment in my garden tend to be those with larger fruits. So year after year I end up selecting for productivity instead of for smaller fruit sizes. Another thing that happens with my moschata squash, is that my season is so short and cold that a warmth-loving plant doesn't really develop to it's full potential, so the fruits grow larger in other gardens than they do in mine. Regardless of how often people ask me for small butternuts, I just can't give up my Giant Necked Squash. This summer I planted the smallest fruits from last year into an isolated field. Here's hoping that I remember to report on that in a month or so.
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Post by Ecophreek on Sept 1, 2014 14:30:34 GMT -5
Joseph: Just a quick question (or 20 ), why did you pick 'Buckskin' as a parent if it was watery instead of a drier variety? Was it due to what was on hand at the time, planned, or just a variety that grows well in your area? How quickly, if one is selecting for it, can you get the size back down after using a larger variety than you want your goal to be? Have you noticed the "neck" phenotype to be recessive, dominant, or co-dominant? Other observations of two of the varieties I ordered: Honey Nut is listed as being a cross of a butternut and a buttercup (moschata X maxima) as is Autumn Crown. I thought these crosses produced sterile offspring? Does anyone know if either variety produces viable seed? If not, it's back to the drawing board for me.
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Post by Joseph Lofthouse on Sept 1, 2014 19:18:27 GMT -5
The thing that most defines my gardening is that I am a sustenance farmer living under a vow of poverty. Buckskin pumpkin is a local variety grown by one of the local farmers. So I was able to buy a few pumpkins and get lots of seed very inexpensively. Other watery varieties that I started with were Long-of-Naples: I really like the huge size of the fruits, and the dark green skin color, but ugh on the watery texture and sickly taste. The first year I planted whatever seeds I could obtain via swap or gift. About 75% of the varieties that I planted did not produce seeds. So my first goal was to be able to grow squash. Any squash at all, no matter how distasteful, then I could work on flavor after I got reliable productivity. That's pretty much the pattern I follow in all my landrace development projects: Productivity and reliability are highest priority.
I mostly select against pumpkin shapes so I don't have a good feel for which shape-genes are dominant vs recessive.
If I was willing to do self pollination I could get back to only small fruits in 4 growing seasons...
1- Make the cross 2- Grow out the F1. 3- Select among the F2 and self the most promising varieties. 4- Grow out the selfed seeds to select the best sibling groups and increase seed. By now the variety will be fairly stable for shape and size: Especially if you self again this year.
Moschata and Maxima have the same number of chromosomes, so I wouldn't necessarily expect crosses to be sterile, especially if you have one or the other parent species to use as a pollen donor.
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Post by oxbowfarm on Sept 1, 2014 19:40:12 GMT -5
The interspecies Cucurbita hybrids will produce viable seed, but they are almost always male sterile so need donor pollen from one or the other of the parent species, so you can cross them, but you end up breeding back to one or the other.
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Post by jondear on Sept 2, 2014 19:42:47 GMT -5
One or the other wouldn't have to be one of the original cultivars would it?
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Post by Joseph Lofthouse on Sept 2, 2014 22:33:28 GMT -5
One or the other wouldn't have to be one of the original cultivars would it? No. Any normal plant from either species should work fine.
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Post by Ecophreek on Sept 14, 2014 16:36:57 GMT -5
Will this backcross restore male fertility?
I have all the seeds now and am wondering about growing the Honey Nut and the Musquee de Provence in pots over the winter inside. I have plenty of grow lights and it would enable me to get the first cross out of the way during the winter. I know I won't get fruit that is large enough to be usable but it would (should) provide smaller fruits that still contain the crossed seed. I read something about smaller fruits due to pot restriction in another thread. I could then grow the f1 of that cross out in the spring. This would put me an entire growing season ahead of schedule.
The winter cross would be Honey Nut X Musquee De Provence. Unfortunately I would be unable to do the reciprocal cross, per info from Oxbowfarm, but hopefully that will provide a start to my project.
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Post by oxbowfarm on Sept 14, 2014 17:13:57 GMT -5
That would be an interesting project. I've never heard of anyone growing winter squash under grow lights, not that it could not be done necessarily. You could probably very severely root restrict the pollen parent as you are only looking for flowers.
You can do Honey Nut X Musquee de Provence either direction as they are both Cucurbita moschata.
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