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Post by steev on Dec 22, 2014 2:41:31 GMT -5
Yeah, sure; I'm gonna give it a shot; nothing to lose but a few bucks.
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Post by cortona on Jan 9, 2015 5:48:50 GMT -5
i'm rereading an old italian gardening book and i finally understand that naone is more exactly navone, and that book cal it a brassica napus esculenta
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Post by josephsimcox on Jan 13, 2015 0:06:03 GMT -5
I found this seed being offered by a consortium of Seed Collectors from the Trentino Plain. The director was a man who was the editor of a local Organization that preserved ancient vegetables.
Two of the gentleman there got into a discussion with me, and they were very well prepared to point out that this was a true "Cabbage" and not a rutabaga or turnip. Of course I also thought that it looked like a turnip or a Rutabaga, but they told me that there had been research done on it and it was a "cabbage" So OxbowFarms may indeed doubt my own research instincts but these Italians that i was speaking with were not ignorant at all about the subject.
Later we grew these out in Missouri and Like Rowan, we found the swollen stems to be very sweet, tender and delicious. I saw no similarity with either a Rutabaga or Turnip in the flavor. Almost 100% Kohlrabi for me, hence Brassica oleracea!
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Post by nicollas on Jan 13, 2015 3:33:04 GMT -5
I guess that a way to test the species is to try some pollinations with oleracea and napus and see which cross will take ?
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Post by josephsimcox on Apr 10, 2015 18:53:44 GMT -5
Hello Everyone,
Especially the doubters, By now some of you have raised out the Naones' ( yellow and pink). I originally acquired this amazing crucifer at the seed exchange in Torriglia , Italy. On the Baker Creek Website a certain part of the story is described. I too have now been able to document the plant by harvesting it in mansfield, Missouri at the Baker Creek trial grow-outs! It is amazing.
Like the consortia of growers told me ( They were well educated and very lucid and were vehement that this was indeed a Brassica oleracea) They were right! I am sure that some of you now find it an amazing vegetable. There is over 2000 years of documented history on this vegetable and i can assure you that the Italians know how to do their research!
It is a find that i am very proud of! Best Joseph Simcox
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Post by rowan on Apr 10, 2015 21:31:17 GMT -5
I only bought one packet of seeds and planted them in two beds, one for seed and the other for eating. As you all know I adored these when I tried them, and I also took a few to a local market and the reviews from my customers were fantastic. From the true cabbage taste of the leaves I have no doubts now that they are B oleracea, it is only the leaf shape that is surprising. Anyway, thank you Joseph for making these available.
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Post by oxbowfarm on Apr 11, 2015 20:47:36 GMT -5
Joseph, welcome to Homegrown Goodness. I am still very much in doubt that this plant is Brassica oleracea. I'd love to hear some specific reasons why you are convinced that it is oleracea vs B. napus? What aspect of growing it out has convinced you? All I have to go on is the pictures Rowan has posted, and those look exactly like a rutabaga. Have you done a chromosome count and found 18?
I can think of some trials that would help determine it more conclusively. A singe plant allowed to flower in isolation would likely set very little if any viable seed if it is oleracea, due to self incompatibility. If it did manage to set large amounts of seed it is likely a self compatible B. napus. A series of trials with single plants paired with flowering oleracea or napus would also give a good indication of which species it was, assuming you could get them to flower synchronously, which is very challenging sometimes.
I am not terribly convinced by descriptions of flavor or adamant Italian farmers. Phenotype doesn't tell you anything much about genotype, especially chromosome number.
Hyperbole about vegetable varieties is as old as the commercial seed industry, given that you are in the business of selling this seed and telling this story, I will continue to doubt it till you back the statements up with some meaningful data.
I personally find a lot of the stuff in the Explorer Series troubling. The prices are VERY high, the seed quantities are very low, and the information is extremely incomplete. It concerns me that you are selling people Andean corn without even mentioning that there is likely zero chance of it setting seed unless they do some extreme gymnastics to monkey with the photoperiod the plants experience. Not to mention that 20 seeds is several hundred seeds short of a viable population to prevent inbreeding.
You call some of the Lupini "Giant" but there is nothing in the photos for scale? They look like normal lupini to me, so why should I spend $3.50 for 20 seeds when I can buy a 3.5 oz box of them for $4.60 from Seeds of Italy?
Black Seeded Russian sunflowers? Wow, those are rare. Maybe I should spend $3 dollars for 30 seeds from Baker Creek rather than going to the feed store and buying a 50 POUND BAG OF THEM for $8. Give me a break.
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Post by rowan on Apr 12, 2015 1:50:17 GMT -5
That's a bit harsh Ox. I agree that there should be more info in the descriptions but I am sure that Joe doesn't have the last say in the price of seed in businesses he doesn't own, and anyway he doesn't have to justify the prices to you or me or anyone. He does, however, have to make a living and feel the need to recoup some of the costs of travelling around the world to bring us rare seeds that we are obviously going to propagate and make money off ourselves. If they are too expensive, don't buy.
I know I have been happy to pay high prices for a seed or two just to be able to have it, even when I am a bit skint, which is most of the time, lol. I am grateful that someone is able to bring seeds to the general public that we, such as I with no passport to go and find them myself, can grow. maybe the resulting plants are not what I expected because of a short description but if that is what I have to work with I will, and make my own descriptions for my customers when I get them growing and find out for myself.
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Post by imgrimmer on Apr 21, 2015 17:21:11 GMT -5
I found a cabbage called navone on an italian website for amateur breeders and gardeners. It is called a rutabaga. I ate rutabaga raw and it reminds me on Kohlrabi, when cooked it is sweet an very mild, delicious. It suits your description very well. But navone looks different from rutabagas I know. here is the link to the site
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Post by imgrimmer on Apr 21, 2015 17:40:48 GMT -5
rowan wheather it is a rutabaga or not, here is a recipe I love for rutabaga and maybe it is good for navone as well cut it in pieces and cook it together with potatoes and a lot of caraway in water like a soup, maybe add some onions if you like it. and serve it with some vinegar. delicious! I am getting hungry
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Post by rowan on Apr 21, 2015 18:26:37 GMT -5
Thanks, Can never have too many recipes
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Post by rowan on Sept 21, 2015 14:28:53 GMT -5
Just an update. I had one plant flower over a week before any of the others so I keep an eye on it and all the early flowers seem to have produced full pods of seed so although it has been noted that some oleracea do self pollinate especially for the first flowers it is odds on that that this plant is B napus.
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Post by billw on Nov 26, 2015 12:59:59 GMT -5
I've have been intending to do this since spring, but could never find the time. Average chromosome count from a cabbage turnip root tip grown from a root cutting: 18.4 (2n count = 36.9).
The root was clearly growing slowly and it was hard to find cells in the right phase, so I need to do it again. I suspect that number should be rounded up to 19, not down to 18. (I really don't think it is B. juncea.) But, it wasn't 9, so I think we can rule out oleracea.
I'll have to try this again in the spring with some fresh, young plants.
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Post by reed on Nov 27, 2015 8:21:54 GMT -5
I find this one kind of funny, because it looks like some of the results that you get from open pollination of different brassicas. It looks more like something that the typical seed saver would be horrified by than a precious heirloom, but a good story can change everything. I have a small amount of ground in cultivation, approximately 1/4 acre total and want to developed self sustainability within that restriction. I have had an idea that if things like for example broccoli and Brussels sprouts, cross I might not care, I can still eat it whatever grows from it even if it doesn't always grow the same thing . Also I can minimize or eliminate genetic depression in my small garden. Are you suggesting that reckless crossing of brassicas might result in an editable root, maybe with good storing ability or even winter hardy? That would be sweet!
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Post by billw on Nov 27, 2015 12:02:33 GMT -5
Sure, if you have turnips and rutabagas in the mix with compatible leaf brassicas you can get all kinds of crazy stuff. Whether or not you can stabilize it into something useful is another matter.
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