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Post by oldmobie on Nov 22, 2014 16:33:51 GMT -5
I just got seeds for three grains in a trade. Wheats: Bolero & Ethiopian Purple, barley: Tibetan Purple. I googled a bit for instructions, but found a huge haystack of information obscuring the few needles I'm looking for.
Firstly, I'll need to know when to plant. Looks like winter wheat/ barley gets planted around two months before first frost, spring wheat/ barley around last frost. What I'm not finding is whether certain varieties inherantly fall into these categories (x wheat is winter, y wheat is spring), or whether my planting determines the category (x wheat, planted in fall is winter/ x wheat planted in spring is spring). If the categories are inherant, how do I know which category my varieties belong to? What happens if I plant them in the wrong season? Will I still get seed and be able to select until it grows well when I want to plant?
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Post by Joseph Lofthouse on Nov 22, 2014 20:16:50 GMT -5
I suppose that there is both a genetic and a cultural aspect to the nomenclature of spring-wheat or winter wheat. All of the wheats that I grow can be planted in the spring or in the fall. I prefer fall planting because they act as a cover crop, weeding is easier, and productivity is higher.
If you plant a spring-wheat in the fall then it might winter kill. If you still have seed then it can be replanted in the spring.
If you plant a winter-wheat in the spring then productivity is typically lower and harvest is delayed. Some winter wheats may even require cold temperatures before they will flower, so if you plant them in the spring you don't get a harvest until the second summer. I plant winter wheats any time during fall or winter when the ground isn't frozen. If not planted in the fall, or during a mid-winter thaw, then the day after the snow melts in the spring. I typically get my fields tilled about 2 weeks before the arrival of winter snows, so that's when my wheat goes in. It seems to grow under the snow.
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Post by steev on Nov 23, 2014 11:34:14 GMT -5
The Bolero is commonly listed as a Spring wheat, but in mild-winter areas, such as my farm, it seems to make little difference in survival, but Fall-sown is more productive. I expect to plant those three next week and 16 others ASAP.
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Post by oldmobie on Nov 26, 2014 18:12:23 GMT -5
A low risk experiment seemed to be in order, to determine how they grow in my garden. My youngest son counted out 25 seeds of each today while I prepped the soil. Each variety got a square foot. West to East: Tibetan Purple Barley, Bolero Wheat & Ethiopian Purple Wheat. I'll plant more in the spring and compare performance.
As always, thanks for the time, info and guidance!
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Post by oldmobie on Nov 13, 2015 14:28:37 GMT -5
This came up volunteer where I mulched with straw. It's wheat, right? I'm sure it was commercially grown. Is commercial wheat usually GMO? I hope not, it's probably well adapted to my area.
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Post by blueadzuki on Nov 13, 2015 18:02:47 GMT -5
Definitely wheat
I've been having my own grain sowing timing headaches, or more accurately, I think I am going to.
Last year, I bought a fair number of packets of alternate wheat species from Prairie Garden seeds (I find that non standard species tend to perform a bit better for me than the conventional ones, as well as usually being nicer to look at (important since the amounts I grow are never big enough to actually eat., so what I get is destined for dried floral arrangements) I wasn't until some months later that it suddenly occurred to me that, when I ordered the grains, I had not been informed of which were to be winter sown and which spring; and all requests back so far have not been replied to. So at this point I am a bit unsure of what I am going to do. The logical choice would be to split each pack (plant half now, half in the spring) But given that the amount I have usually causes some difficulties come pollination time anyway, I worry the halving the samples would basically ensure I got no grains back.
A part of me wants to assume they have to be winter sown (or, at least, tolerable of being winter sown) since all grains PG sells they grow locally (as far as I can tell) and it seems to me that Canada is too far north for ANY grain that had to be spring sown to have time to produce before frost (unless they grow really, really fast) Additionally with one exception (the first) all presumably come from the depths of the Balkans, Caucuses, and other hinterlands of the former Soviet states, all of which are presumably just as short of season (and many probably still shorter).
I've already made one mistake making this assumption. This spring I planted some sprat barley (Hordeum zeocriton) at about the same time in spring as I would normally plant barley. I was a disaster. The sprat not only lagged behind the other barley by months, and never actually even began to show signs of making heads (which would possibly indicate something I should have winter sown) but literally was obliterated by the first sign of frost (I checked to see if it had simply died down to the roots for the winter to prep for a re-emergence in spring, but it was literally rotted all the way to the core by the fist freeze. So I have no clue WHAT kind of conditions it likes (maybe cold but very dry (it is a succulent). But I read accounts of it being grown often in Great Britain in the past, and that's even wetter than here.
Here's the list (should anyone have tried any of these, and can give me some tips)
isphanicum jacubzineri petropavlovsky timopheevi vavilovii zhukovsky
There's also a packet of a black headed einkorn, but since I am short a pot or two thus year, I may save that one for the next go around.
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Post by Joseph Lofthouse on Nov 13, 2015 21:14:04 GMT -5
The small grains that I grow can be fall planted or spring planted. Planting in fall leads to larger and earlier harvests, but they all mature mid-summer-ish regardless of when I plant them.
If I plant them in the spring, I plant them about the same time that the forsythia are flowering: As soon as the ground thaws and I can get seed into the ground.
I believe that GMO wheat is not currently being grown commercially, because 2,4,D can be used for broadleaf weed control, and glyphosate can be used to kill the crop and grassy or broadleaved weeds before harvest.
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Post by steev on Nov 13, 2015 23:47:54 GMT -5
Well, that's a relief; I don't think we need Agribusiness mucking about with our daily bread.
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Post by raymondo on Nov 13, 2015 23:48:42 GMT -5
As far as I know, GMO wheat was in the pipeline but has been shelved for the time being.
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Post by prairiegarden on Oct 11, 2016 7:08:20 GMT -5
Well, that's a relief; I don't think we need Agribusiness mucking about with our daily bread. But agribusiness IS mucking about with our daily bread, as was pointed out glyphosate is used to kill and dry down the crop, and showed up in every loaf of bread they tested in the UK. I just got a newsletter that said it is so ubiquitous now ( because of drift?) that even most organically grown grain is showing contamination. I got some perennial rye from PG seed, they told me that it's supposed to be planted in the fall but they usually plant it in the spring and it does ok, I can't remember any explanation being given. I forgot about it until this thread showed up, if/when this snow melts will have to do something with it.
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Post by blueadzuki on Oct 11, 2016 11:46:29 GMT -5
Definitely wheat I've been having my own grain sowing timing headaches, or more accurately, I think I am going to. Last year, I bought a fair number of packets of alternate wheat species from Prairie Garden seeds (I find that non standard species tend to perform a bit better for me than the conventional ones, as well as usually being nicer to look at (important since the amounts I grow are never big enough to actually eat., so what I get is destined for dried floral arrangements) I wasn't until some months later that it suddenly occurred to me that, when I ordered the grains, I had not been informed of which were to be winter sown and which spring; and all requests back so far have not been replied to. So at this point I am a bit unsure of what I am going to do. The logical choice would be to split each pack (plant half now, half in the spring) But given that the amount I have usually causes some difficulties come pollination time anyway, I worry the halving the samples would basically ensure I got no grains back. A part of me wants to assume they have to be winter sown (or, at least, tolerable of being winter sown) since all grains PG sells they grow locally (as far as I can tell) and it seems to me that Canada is too far north for ANY grain that had to be spring sown to have time to produce before frost (unless they grow really, really fast) Additionally with one exception (the first) all presumably come from the depths of the Balkans, Caucuses, and other hinterlands of the former Soviet states, all of which are presumably just as short of season (and many probably still shorter). I've already made one mistake making this assumption. This spring I planted some sprat barley ( Hordeum zeocriton) at about the same time in spring as I would normally plant barley. I was a disaster. The sprat not only lagged behind the other barley by months, and never actually even began to show signs of making heads (which would possibly indicate something I should have winter sown) but literally was obliterated by the first sign of frost (I checked to see if it had simply died down to the roots for the winter to prep for a re-emergence in spring, but it was literally rotted all the way to the core by the fist freeze. So I have no clue WHAT kind of conditions it likes (maybe cold but very dry (it is a succulent). But I read accounts of it being grown often in Great Britain in the past, and that's even wetter than here. Here's the list (should anyone have tried any of these, and can give me some tips) isphanicum jacubzineri petropavlovsky timopheevi vavilovii zhukovsky There's also a packet of a black headed einkorn, but since I am short a pot or two thus year, I may save that one for the next go around. Didn't work. The fall sown grains came up (in a few cases) but froze down to the bottom of the roots as soon as it got cold. And the spring planted ones never came up AT all.
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Post by walt on Oct 11, 2016 14:19:02 GMT -5
I did grad work at KSU, the greatest wheat university in the world. Everyone on campus said so. So I was working with barley, but I used the same methods as the wheat people. There are winter wheats, spring wheats and facultative spring wheats. Obligate winter wheats require vernalization before they bloom. Obligate spring wheat aren't winter-hardy, and must be planted in the spring, or they will be killed by the cold. Facultative spring wheats don't require vernalization, (winter or cold treatment) but they can handle it. There are few, if any, places in the world where farmers don't either plant in the spring or the fall, but do what feel good this year. So collectors label them either as spring or fall types and no one knows otherwise. From crossing winter and spring types, one could theoreticly get a proportion of wheat seedlings that require more cold to bloom than they can survive. Those obviously don't make it to the next generation. If you have a wheat that you don't know if it is spring or winter type, then trying both planting times would be a way to find out. If you don't have enough seeds to risk that, there is another way. I was crossing spring and winter barley to get greenbug resistance from spring barley into winter barley. To get them to bloom together, I'd sprout the winter barley seeds on moist filter paper in petri dishes. As soon as I saw the tip of a sprout, I'd put them in a refridgerator set just above freezing for 30 days. From there on I'd treat the seedlings like spring wheat. It would grow and bloom.
So if you like, moisten your unknown seeds about 30 days before last frost. Keep them warm a few days until you see the first start of a sprout. and put it in your refridgerator. At last frost, plant them out and water them, at least once.
Another way, and I should have said this first, google the name of the wheat. It might tell you when to plant it. Duh moment here.
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Post by walt on Oct 11, 2016 15:11:33 GMT -5
Timopheevi wheat, from Armenia and Geogia, is a spring wheat. It is not closly related to most other wheats. Like all wheats, timopheevi, vavilovii, and zhukovsky have the AA genomes of Einkorn wheat. But all except timopheevi, vavilovii, and zhukovsky also have the BB genomes of a goatgrass similar to T. spearsi. Timopheevi has GG instead of BB. So AAGG for timopheevi, and AAAAGG for vavilovii and zhukovsky. Durum wheat is AABB. Common bread wheat is AABBDD Vavilovii and zhukovsky grow mixed in the same fields as timopheevi. All are spring wheats. Timopheevi is easier to cross with rye than is most other wheats. Chineese Spring and a few other bread do cross more easily.
I never studied this myself, but I shared a lab with Tim Kileen, who was doing research on crossablitity of wheats with rye and barley. I think I might remember more of his research than my own.
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Post by steev on Oct 11, 2016 19:10:43 GMT -5
Why am I tempted to say "Why do I need to learn all this? I just want to grow wheat." Duh.
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