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Post by reed on Aug 25, 2015 13:37:37 GMT -5
With what I'v learned on the forum and this years experiments I'm starting to get a better idea of what I want to try to breed for in both sweet and flour corn. Short season, general hardiness, drought tolerance.
I haven't lost my general prejudice against yellow endosperm but for sweet I can't find a good white with reported disease resistance that isn't longer season than I want. I'm looking at Bodacious RM to bring in disease tolerance. At a reported 77 DTM it is still longer season than I really want but I figure I can work with that. Problem of course is that it is yellow. If I try growing it detasseled I suppose in the first year at least I would still get yellow. Might any white kernels show up in later generations or would I get some right away?
I guess what I really need to know is what is easier to select against, long season or yellow endosperm? On the other hand I haven't had any really serious problems with disease, maybe I should focus on more primary goals first.
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Post by blueadzuki on Aug 25, 2015 14:20:17 GMT -5
From what I understand, yellow white is a pretty simple straight dominain/recessive situation (with the slight complication that since it occurs in the 3n endosperm so there are four possible combos not three
So I suppose that it sort of depends on HOW yellow the yellow corn is, Yyy (pale yellow) YYy (yellow) or YYY (deep yellow). The first might make some whites the first go (for those cases where both of the pollen donor nuclei are white,) the second two won't.
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Post by Joseph Lofthouse on Aug 25, 2015 19:04:38 GMT -5
reed: I select for short season so that corn will mature in my climate... Longer season corns tend to produce larger cobs and higher yields, because they have more hours of sunlight to work with. Other growers are better served sometimes by longer season corn. But if a long-season corn is lost to animals, or weather, or bugs, or disease, then might as well target shorter season corn. I think selecting for color is easiest, because once I successfully select for white, it is more or less a fixed trait... And I can do the selection at any time, with any old collection of bulk seed. The genetics that determine days to maturity are complicated and messy. It's not a single on/off gene, but a whole series of them that interact with each other. It's straightforward to save seeds from the earliest cobs to mature in a patch and replant those... I moved my version of Astronomy Domine sweet corn to about 10 fewer days to maturity in about 3 growing seasons. But if the underlying genes for quicker maturity aren't in the genepool, then it's really difficult to select for.
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Post by reed on Aug 26, 2015 5:14:48 GMT -5
I want short season for all of those reasons. Plus even with the borrowed spot across the road I'm only at about a 1/4 of an acre total garden space. To fill the pantry every year with dry and canned beans, taters and other stuff we use through winter I can't afford to have a big portion filled up for the whole season. The only really nice naturally dried ears I got were Painted Mountain, Cascade Cream Cap and Pancake White Manna. Higher above the ground ears had no advantage from the coons, they just pushed the stalks over so I think next year I'll mix in genetics from those little tiny corns I got last year and didn't plant. Orchard Baby and Yukon Supreme. My saved AD, my crossed PM and CCC, Aunt Mary's which I loved are for sure going in the mix. My saved Spring Snow, Ruby Queen and Silver Choice for their se genes and then get some Bodacious for the disease resistance.
I don't know how long it will take or if its even possible but I'm picturing a sweet corn with long slender ears with 8 - 10 rows of big kernels that you can eat 65 days or less and have good seed soon after. To increase the degree of difficulty in pulling it off I want white endosperm, colorless aleurone and varying pericarp.
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Post by nathanp on Aug 26, 2015 5:57:16 GMT -5
Wikipedia lista a few white SU and a few white SE sweet corns. Are any of those ones that you could use in the mix? White se Spring Snow, 65 days[11] Sugar Pearl, 73 days[11] Whiteout, 73 days[11] Cloud Nine, 77 days[11] Alpine, 79 days Silver King, 82 days (se version of Silver Queen)[2] Argent, 86 days[1] White su True Platinum, 80 days (open pollinated)[8] Country Gentleman, 92 days (heirloom, shoepeg type, open pollinated) Silver Queen, 92 days[2] Stowell's Evergreen, 98 days (heirloom, open pollinated. In northern climates or higher altitudes, this variety may not reach full maturity in the growing season. However, before the killing frost entire stalks may be harvested, including the partially mature ears, and hung in a barn or shed. Ears may then be picked for a month or more, hence the name evergreen.) I should also add that Joseph's strain of Ashworth (partially SE) has some white in it. You could always grow that out as well and select for white. That is a short season variety. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sweetcorn_varieties#White_se
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Post by keen101 (Biolumo / Andrew B.) on Aug 26, 2015 10:56:00 GMT -5
I like eating the commercial variety Peaches and Cream. I like it better than pure white or pure yellow. Never tried to grow it. Listed as 70 days. You could select out only the white kernels. Someone should invent a partially red sweet corn and partially white. I'd try that.
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Post by jondear on Aug 28, 2015 23:04:03 GMT -5
From what I understand, yellow white is a pretty simple straight dominain/recessive situation (with the slight complication that since it occurs in the 3n endosperm so there are four possible combos not three So I suppose that it sort of depends on HOW yellow the yellow corn is, Yyy (pale yellow) YYy (yellow) or YYY (deep yellow). The first might make some whites the first go (for those cases where both of the pollen donor nuclei are white,) the second two won't. This must be what I'm observing in my corn saved for seed this year. I planted both white and yellow seeds from Double Standard. The plants were detasseled and pollen mostly came from bi colored SE plants. All came out as bicolored cobs. The yellow seeds must have been going to be bicolors anyway, but I notice the yellow is darker on these cobs. The Ashworth plants produced all yellow cobs as expected. I don't see any real variance in color on these cobs. So if I understand correctly, white seeds will make white corn if not pollinated by yellow, yellow seeds on the cobs of white plants will make bi color cobs, and I'd guess dark yellow from the bicolored cobs should make yellow cobs.
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Post by reed on Aug 29, 2015 7:08:03 GMT -5
In any event it sounds like I can detassel some yellow Bodacious to get it's disease tolerance into the gene pool and then in future seasons select the yellow endosperm back out. Eventually maybe ending up with the white endosperm, colorless aleurone and varied pericarp. The aleurone might be a problem but looks like most of the corns I am working with have that already. it's harder to dissect wrinkled kernels to see the aleurone than flour or flint. First priority of course is that it grows and produces reliably.
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Post by nathanp on Aug 30, 2015 19:40:51 GMT -5
I am pretty sure I have some Ashworth that has white seeds in the mix. I'll look through my freezer sometime this week to confirm that.
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