|
Post by oldmobie on Mar 26, 2016 13:02:38 GMT -5
I've only grown from TPS once, but I got satisfactory results by WinterSowing. Hopefully they respond well to bottom heat, but they will grow without it.
|
|
|
Post by gilbert on Mar 26, 2016 18:18:14 GMT -5
I'm interested in creating pull starts to increase rare varieties. I have one tuber of Diamond Toro, for instance.
However, I'm interested in growing all these tubers in towers. To have a productive tower potato, the stem needs to stay buried or mulched; if it gets green, it will no longer grow stolons even once buried.
What if I deeply buried a potato in a pot, let the sprouts break the surface, and then dug it up and pulled them off? Would they work like pull starts once planted in the towers?
Or do pull starts need the sun?
|
|
|
Post by gilbert on Mar 26, 2016 20:21:47 GMT -5
Progress report:
I planted a Diamond Toro tuber and an unknown tuber in pots of potting mix of the basement. These will be transplanted to towers either as they are, once they grow sprouts up through the surface of the mix, or as pull sprouts. (The unknown was sold to me by somebody who thought it would be useful in my project. It is a red fingerling with red flesh, originally from a Florida farmers market. )
I planted TPS of Diamond Toro and the red fingerling in small pots of potting mix, and put them with the non-heated pots due to comments on here about starting TPS.
I sprayed the surface of all the pots, both soil and gel, with a solution of hydrogen peroxide; 1 and 1/2 teaspoons of 3% hydrogen peroxide to one cup water. This is supposed to deter fungi / mold, and may help seeds sprout.
I will get some pictures on here once there is something to see besides pots of dirt.
|
|
|
Post by paquebot on Mar 26, 2016 20:43:05 GMT -5
Somehow you have the idea that as long as it is not green it is going to produce stolons from the bottom to the top. That ain't how it works and has been covered before. Only thing left is for you to discover it for yourself. I have hundreds of white sprouts a foot long or more. Millions of other gardeners around the world also have them right now. If breaking them off and planting them 10" deep would result in 15-20 tubers per plant, I would think that someone would have thought of this at least 600 years ago. It don't work that way!
Martin
|
|
|
Post by Joseph Lofthouse on Mar 27, 2016 21:11:30 GMT -5
someone would have thought of this at least 600 years ago. I gotta award the above comment the gold star for this thread.
|
|
|
Post by gilbert on Mar 27, 2016 21:26:31 GMT -5
OK, Martin, I thought that is what you meant by this post, a few pages back. Sorry if I misunderstood it; what did you mean?
Then Nathan responded by saying that if a stem is kept from going green, the stolon bearing part will elongate . . . if the potato has the genetics to do so.
What am I missing?
|
|
|
Post by paquebot on Mar 27, 2016 22:06:53 GMT -5
Gilbert, what you are missing is where the stolons are produced. They don't just show up like warts on a hand. They are located in a very defined portion of the stem. Like eyes, there are many more than needed. I've often referred to that section as being elastic. By that, it can be stretched or elongated. If not, Durgan's monotonous blather would be 100% correct. All stolons will extend out from that portion of the stem and all at the same level. Plant knows that there is only so much room for tubers and thus only activates what it thinks it can handle. Nothing wrong with that if one is looking for big tubers. BUT, if that portion can be stretched out, unused stolon buds may be activated since they don't sense that another is already there. BUT, that does not mean more production other than numbers, as I have previously stated. If there are only enough nutrients to produce X amount of weight, X is all it will produce no matter if 5 tubers or 25 tubers. (All Blue is one that often pulls that sneaky trick.)
What you need to do now is take one of those long sprouts and plant it in a pot with a loose medium. After a couple weeks, pull it up and study it. You will see a cluster of hairy roots around the end. Just barely above them will be little white bumps in a tight circle all the way around. That's where the stolons start from. Doesn't matter how long that sprout may be, those are the only stolons that will ever be produced on that sprout. There is nothing that you will ever be able to do to reverse it. It is something that can only be built from square one.
Martin
|
|
|
Post by gilbert on Mar 27, 2016 22:22:44 GMT -5
Hi Martin:
OK, so let's make sure I've got this right. You are Saying:
All the potato bearing stolons only come from one defined point on the stem. That section can be stretched out, so that more stolons are produced over a larger area of stem the usual.
However, this will not give any better results then usual, since the potato will simply divide the same amount of light between a greater number of potatoes: result, lots of small potatoes, same weight.
Correct?
|
|
|
Post by Joseph Lofthouse on Mar 27, 2016 23:38:08 GMT -5
I have been claiming since before this thread began, that it seems to me, like there are very real physical and biological factors at play that limit the amount of tubers that can be produced. A limited amount of sunlight falls on a garden. Biology is very inefficient at converting that to starch. There are only so many growing-degree-days in a season. Photosynthesis shuts off at night, and at high temperatures, and at low temperatures. It only takes one minor nutrient being in short supply to limit all the other biological processes in the plant.
I have seen some varieties of TPS potatoes that grew potatoes from any piece of buried stem, even if it was green when buried. The tubers on the plants were about the size of marbles. That's great for eating peas and potatoes in cream sauce. It's OK for a niche market farmer, cause people love mini-potatoes. But it's not a good way to feed a community: Too much labor for too little return.
In my garden, and community, the purpose of hilling potatoes is not to increase productivity... It is to prevent sunlight from reaching the tubers and making them poisonous. I suppose that inadvertently increases productivity because fewer tubers have to be culled.
|
|
|
Post by oldmobie on Mar 27, 2016 23:53:47 GMT -5
I've read of people rooting cuttings and getting normal production from them. That must mean the cutting develops roots AND stolons, hence my "dirt layering" experiment. Since the top of my plant is still attached to the bottom, I don't know if it will "feel the need" to produce an extra set of roots and stolons or not. Since I'm ignorant of what factors are even relevant, I'll just call it a 50/50 chance. If they do form, it won't overcome the limitations of nutrients or sunlight. Those factors will only be "X" either way. I'm keeping the experiment cheap in terms of money and in terms of labor. It'll be fun to see what happens. Either result will be good, because I'm likely to learn something and get some food in the process.
Hope that's where you're coming from too. It'll be great to see you succeed, but it'd suck to see you get discouraged by an unfavorable result after a huge outlay of money and labor. Remember to keep it fun.
|
|
|
Post by reed on Mar 28, 2016 1:57:11 GMT -5
In my garden, and community, the purpose of hilling potatoes is not to increase productivity... It is to prevent sunlight from reaching the tubers and making them poisonous. I suppose that inadvertently increases productivity because fewer tubers have to be culled. In my garden the purpose of hilling potatoes is make them easier to dig. I make my hills ahead of time by filling trenches with organic debris the fall before and covering with a thick layer of soil. By spring it has settled down to maybe six - eight inches above grade. In spring I don't till it at all, I just dig holes down to maybe a couple inches below grade, drop in a potato and cover with dirt. It ends up several inches deep but just barely down into my hard clay soil. There is sometimes quite a bit of not completely rotted material still in there but I have never had a problem of potatoes not forming. That happens more if they are planted in the unimproved hard clay, especially in a dry year. I suppose it is a trade off labor wise cause making the hill trenches is quite a bit of work but planting the next spring is downright leisurely and it's fun to just stick a garden fork in the edge and turn up nice big potatoes instead of digging to China in hard clay for a bunch of little ones with half of them chopped up to boot.
|
|
|
Post by gilbert on Mar 28, 2016 17:22:12 GMT -5
Hi everyone,
Yes, I'm not too attached to this experiment. I guess I'm the kind of guy who, when told something is impossible, likes to go try it. I like the book titled "Palms don't grow here, and other Myths"!
About the physics: I think the idea was that in normal circumstances in the southwest there is enough solar radiation, and enough growing season, in the southwest USA to produce 1/2 to 2/3 a pound of potato per square foot. I think that with super nutrition, super attention to watering, and, most importantly, starting potatoes early as transplants so that they cover the ground faster, they might get to 3/4 pounds of potato a square foot. So then, a circular tower 4 feet across the base has a sun facing surface area of approximately 40 square feet; the top and the south east, south, and southwest facing side area. So a tower could produce 30 pounds in an area where in ground potatoes produce 9. I’m ultimately hoping to get above 30 pounds, but even with the basic physics the 30 pound yield should be possible . . . in a layered tower. As far as a potato growing tubers all up the stem I do not know, but will find out.
Oldmobie, that is a very interesting observation. I guess the “never let them green up” thing not absolutely absolute.
Reed, good point. And a tower should be easier to harvest from too.
|
|
|
Post by Joseph Lofthouse on Mar 28, 2016 18:20:23 GMT -5
When I do the math, I get: 3.14 * 2^2 = 13 square feet...
Supposing that the leaves stick out from the tower by 6": That's 3.14 * (2.5)^2 = 20 square feet.
|
|
|
Post by gilbert on Mar 28, 2016 18:30:55 GMT -5
Hi Joseph,
I'm including the sun-ward side of the tower, since with a layered tower, the leaves would stick out of the sides as well.
|
|
|
Post by nathanp on Mar 28, 2016 18:55:04 GMT -5
Sorry for the rambling thoughts below all coming at once. Just wanted to chime in on many of the ideas mentioned over the past few days. The highest yield Curzio has EVER had in a bag is 10lbs. And that has only happened a few times over several years, growing hundreds of bags each year. Not likely, even in the best of times. Those likely had 3-5 seed tubers in the bag to get that as well. Expecting higher than 10lbs is completely unrealistic. I would say expecting an average of more than 3 lbs per bag is probably unrealistic. I don't get that in the ground, which is far more ideal of a growing environment for potatoes. When I have seen potatoes that grow more tubers off stolons, they get progressively smaller as they get further from the plant, which makes sense since they started later than those closest to the original seed tuber. Same with ones growing on the stem(which is rarer). Smaller size as they get higher. I do think there is potential to increase yield through these varieties, but not anything close to doubling yield. You could possibly, over many generations, marginally increase yield. I think there is some logic to the limiting factor being the horizontal growing surface of the soil exposed to sunlight. Having leaves stick out the sides of the tower would be useful only if the bags are spaced far enough apart where the vines protruding from the bags get sunlight. But then again, packing more bags closer together would seem to maximize the available sunlight by covering the entire ground's surface. And I'm not sure how either is better than just planting in the ground, unless you are someone for whom that is not an option. I also think that if you are planting TPS plants in containers in the first year, you are in for an exercise in darwinian failure. You will eliminate 90% or more of your plants and be frustrated at the very low yields with the majority of plants (most TPS plants of mine produce less than 1/2 lb per plant. Many much lower, but that does not mean I do not replant the tubers. It is year 2 and beyond the determine whether plants are worth regrowing). Better to plant your TPS in the ground, and try to identify selected plants with traits you are looking for, then next year plant in containers. I would clarify what I said a bit. My anecdotal experience would say that before the stem turns green, there is a chance stolons may grow at multiple height levels along the stem. If it has the genetics to do so. Those from commercial lines will certainly not have the genetics. Others from andigena, phureja or the chilotanums MAY have the genetics, but plants still may not do that. Here is a TPS plant that has the trait of setting tubers in chains. This was from Boyd Dude, a Tom Wagner bred variety. Most of the Boyd Dude TPS plants had this trait, but this is the best picture I had from one, and had the most tubers. It probably was about a pound yield.
|
|