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Post by reed on Jan 16, 2016 7:54:02 GMT -5
I have wondered for a long time if it is worth trying to grow grains on a small scale. I have no experience with grains and around here don't know that they ever were grown by local farmers except for winter wheat as a cover crop but not to harvest. I have pretty much ruled out wheat because I wouldn't really know what to do with it anyway except grind flour which I doubt I would ever do.
Oats and barley on the the other hand are a different story, I love them both and I'v been reading about hulless varieties that can easily be thrashed and used whole. I'm also pretty sure that wild varieties grow here but we have so many grasses that make various types of seed heads I don't really know what is what. I doubt the wild ones are of much use but who knows? Might be fine for chicken food if I could identify and cultivate or maybe cross with other varieties to make a semi-wild usable crop.
They must be pretty popular as most are sold out for this year at some of my favorite suppliers but I found a source for a couple varieties. I think I will grow some if for no other reason to see if they grow and to see what the look like in real life.
Does anyone have experience growing them? How much space is necessary in order to make it a worthwhile venture? I can only devote maybe 100 sq ft to each one this year.
Do they easily cross with one another (oat x oat) and (barley x barley) and with wild varieties? Does anyone have seed of the hulless ones to trade or sell?
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Post by blueadzuki on Jan 16, 2016 10:02:10 GMT -5
Okay here goes
It IS theoretically possible to grow grains on a small scale . That's basically what I do with the ones I grow in the pots (since any grain I put in the actual ground is immediately consumed by the birds and beasts.)
You main problem is going to be grain set. Small grains are wind pollinated like corn or any other grass is, and unlike corn, they are rather hard to pollinate by hand. So unless your plot is deep enough/wide enough it can be hard to make sure that you get good pollination. My plants head bountifully most years, but it is hardly unusual that, come harvest time, many contain five or fewer actual kernels because my space is so shallow.
As for how much you'd need, it depends on how you want to use it. The standard measurement for wheat is that 100 sq. ft. makes enough wheat to produce about a pound of flour, or enough to make one normal sized loaf of bread. On the other hand, barley and wheat are often used unground (in soup or oatmeal) so a pound might go a lot farther. Most of mine is also for pure curiosity, or for ornamental purposes (I fill vases with the heads and use them for dried flower arrangements)
I don't know about feral grain (grain from a domesticated source, but growing in the wild) I've seen feral of both, with oats the more common since whole oats are a pretty common component of things like horse feed (if you go to a stable in the summer, you will usually find the odd oat plant growing where the horses spilled some food). But as for truly wild, the only one you probably have to worry about is Avena fatua (wild oat) which looks like a smaller version of the domestic oat with longer awns (which will actually drill the seeds into the ground if they get wet) That's really the only wild one that is common in the US (well wild sorghum is pretty common too, but you didn't say you were planning to deal with that)
And yes, barley and oats will interbreed with other strains of themselves quite readily
As for seed, there I can't really help you. Most of the barley I have grown myself is non naked (non free threshing) barley from seeds I found mixed into things like spices from India (whether it was used for food, fodder or brewing I have no idea) Nearly all the rest came from a feral patch last year, ans that was non-naked as well.
The only naked barley I have ever grown was the Chusi Gandruk barley I got from the Kusa seed society last year, and I really don't have enough of that to share anymore (a combination of a very bad harvest and then about 4/5 of the seed I did going moldy because I put it away too soon)
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Post by flowerweaver on Jan 16, 2016 11:15:23 GMT -5
You might check out Small-scale Grain Raising by Gene Logsdon and Homegrown Whole Grains by Sara Pitzer. The reviews I've read say the first book is good but geared towards small farms and the latter toward the home grower.
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Post by Joseph Lofthouse on Jan 16, 2016 11:35:55 GMT -5
Around here, the only feral grain that thrives is rye. Occasionally I see other weedy grains like oats, wheat, millet, or barley, but they strike me as something that fell from a grain truck and grew one season. They don't stick around long term and take over the countryside like the feral rye. The rye has an advantage because it grows 4 to 6 feet tall, so it can out-compete the weeds. The other feral grains that I see are short-stalked modern varieties, so they don't have what it takes, long-term, to out-grow the bindweed and grasses. Feral Rye
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Post by diane on Jan 16, 2016 12:45:40 GMT -5
Bountiful Gardens, which is in Willits California, has grain seeds for sale. This year they are selling packets of three hulless barleys that are not from their regular offerings. The three are chosen from their collection and will vary, so if you buy several packets, you will likely get different kinds. bountifulgardens.org/products/LBA-6618
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Post by aphahn on Jan 16, 2016 15:22:14 GMT -5
I'm also experimenting with small scale grains. At this point I'm just trying things to see what works, so not much to report. Winter rye and barley are in right now. Oats did well this summer, but I lost my 50sqf crop to a rat before I realized what was happening. My goal is to grow both winter and spring types and supply enough for some oatmeal and pancakes. Also trying corn, polish wheat, amaranth, quinoa, buckwheat, sesame, and upland rice (ok, not technicaly all grains). Bountiful gardens a good source, so is fedco, though it looks like the hulless barley is on backorder. fedcoseeds.com/seeds/?cat=GrainsAnother great source is SourcePoint Seeds. I'm growing a few types of quinoa and a high protein winter rye from him. For a SourcePoint Seeds Catalog send $6 to Anpetu Oihankesni 26422 Moss Rock Road Hotchkiss, Colorado 81419
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Post by oxbowfarm on Jan 16, 2016 15:57:38 GMT -5
You main problem is going to be grain set. Small grains are wind pollinated like corn or any other grass is, and unlike corn, they are rather hard to pollinate by hand. So unless your plot is deep enough/wide enough it can be hard to make sure that you get good pollination. My plants head bountifully most years, but it is hardly unusual that, come harvest time, many contain five or fewer actual kernels because my space is so shallow. Jeremy, that's pretty much incorrect. Although all small grains are wind pollinated they are all self compatible and largely self pollinating. The only time that breaks down is under stressed conditions where you get pollen sterility issues from frost or water/heat stress. It is very easy to grow any small grain on the garden scale, without concern to pollination. Bread wheat pollinates inside the glumes before the anthers expose. There are a couple of big problems with growing small grains on a small scale and they are mainly to do with labor. By and large the small grains are some of the easiest crops imaginable to plant, the issue is at harvest. Small grain is extremely challenging to harvest properly. The entire crop is usually ripe all at once, and the harvest window is extremely short before it starts to lodge or gets destroyed by weather. So a plot of wheat large enough to provide a household with all of its grain needs for a year needs to be basically harvested in less than a week, or as short a time as a day or two depending on the weather conditions. If you live in an arid climate you may have more wiggle room, but only a little. That's why commercial scale small grain growing is mostly confined to areas west of the dry line in North America, it widens the harvest window. When small grain was grown and harvested by hand, the harvest was the most important event of the year, and basically the entire rural economy dropped everything and put all hands on this one task till it was done, because the window is so short to get the harvest in before its ruined. The second issue is processing. Threshing small grain into usable grain for grinding or other purposes is much more challenging than it sounds. This is why maize is so superior to small grain in climate where it will grow, easier to plant, easier to harvest, easier to store, enormous harvest window, better yield, and on and on.
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Post by reed on Jan 16, 2016 16:18:01 GMT -5
Thanks everybody for the info on sources, the plant Joseph is holding looks a lot like what grows over on the state's hunting property in the areas that they burn every spring. I don't think they planted it, it must be perennial and likes fire. Also see clumps of it in other places. I'll have to go over and check it out. Never even considered rye. I think it's like wheat in that the only thing I would know to do with it is grind it for bread and I don't have space for anything like that to be worth it. On the hand if that is what that is on the state's land I could just go over and swipe it.
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Post by reed on Jan 16, 2016 16:29:47 GMT -5
Thanks oxbowfarm, that goes a long way in explaining why I am so unfamiliar with small grains and there is nothing in the history of this area about it. Corn is my primary concern for grain but if I could produce enough barley to throw in some beef or venison stock once in a while it would be a treat. Same for a few bowls of oat meal. I wonder if what grows wild is left over from imported feeds, that is if the plants I'm thinking of even are oats or barley. They sure look like the pictures that come up on Google but I need to grow some so I can see it and touch it and smell it before I will be satisfied.
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Post by blueadzuki on Jan 16, 2016 16:35:19 GMT -5
You main problem is going to be grain set. Small grains are wind pollinated like corn or any other grass is, and unlike corn, they are rather hard to pollinate by hand. So unless your plot is deep enough/wide enough it can be hard to make sure that you get good pollination. My plants head bountifully most years, but it is hardly unusual that, come harvest time, many contain five or fewer actual kernels because my space is so shallow. Jeremy, that's pretty much incorrect. Although all small grains are wind pollinated they are all self compatible and largely self pollinating. The only time that breaks down is under stressed conditions where you get pollen sterility issues from frost or water/heat stress. It is very easy to grow any small grain on the garden scale, without concern to pollination. Bread wheat pollinates inside the glumes before the anthers expose. There are a couple of big problems with growing small grains on a small scale and they are mainly to do with labor. By and large the small grains are some of the easiest crops imaginable to plant, the issue is at harvest. Small grain is extremely challenging to harvest properly. The entire crop is usually ripe all at once, and the harvest window is extremely short before it starts to lodge or gets destroyed by weather. So a plot of wheat large enough to provide a household with all of its grain needs for a year needs to be basically harvested in less than a week, or as short a time as a day or two depending on the weather conditions. If you live in an arid climate you may have more wiggle room, but only a little. That's why commercial scale small grain growing is mostly confined to areas west of the dry line in North America, it widens the harvest window. When small grain was grown and harvested by hand, the harvest was the most important event of the year, and basically the entire rural economy dropped everything and put all hands on this one task till it was done, because the window is so short to get the harvest in before its ruined. The second issue is processing. Threshing small grain into usable grain for grinding or other purposes is much more challenging than it sounds. This is why maize is so superior to small grain in climate where it will grow, easier to plant, easier to harvest, easier to store, enormous harvest window, better yield, and on and on. OK if yu say so. I was just going by my personal experiances, where i'd get nothing but a stand of empty to near empty heads. I also think that it may have a lot to do with what type you are working with. One big problem I kept having was that the grain was NOT all ripening at the same time, that I I'd have heads that were done and getting close to lodging/rotting while the heads next to them were still green and wet, and that there never seemed to be a time when the grain was totally "done" until the frost killed it all (ruining whatever was still out there). On my scale it was fine, I could go out every day and harvest heads one by one. But any bigger and it would have been hopeless. Maybe I was wrong and small grain is just as hopeless here as maize is.
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Post by Joseph Lofthouse on Jan 16, 2016 18:39:30 GMT -5
I live in a climate with little summer rain or wind. Therefore near ideal growing conditions for small grains. Fall planted grains particularly thrive here. It seems to me, that in this area, the grains ripen because of hot-temperatures and low-humidity. They mature during the hottest part of the year, months before our fall frosts arrive. My harvestability window is very wide. I eat a small amount of wheat and rye as porridge. Hand harvesting and cleaning a few pounds of seed is straight forward. Harvesting enough to use as a routine staple would be lots of work!!! I estimate that harvesting small grains requires about 30 times more labor than harvesting the same calories of corn. Using my methods, growing corn involves slightly more labor to plant and weed. Ease of threshing is among the most important selection criteria for the small grains that I grow. Next year, I'm intending to put more emphasis on selecting for easy threshability of my grain corn.
Pollination of wheat and rye around here is very good. Even single plants growing in isolation have great yields.
If my irrigation system ever failed, or if I moved further out into the desert to a place without irrigation, I would not be able to grow corn. My grain crops would then be wheat or rye, regardless of the labor involved.
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ethin
gardener
Plant Breeder and Graphic Designer in Cache Valley Utah, USDA Zone 4b
Posts: 214
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Post by ethin on Jan 16, 2016 19:41:18 GMT -5
I've grown a few kinds of small grain the last 3 years (barley, oats, wheat, rye, sorghum, millet).
I've never had my garden tilled in the fall for fall planting so I've planted them all in the spring witch works ok for all but the rye.
For me when grown as a row crop and being irrigated once a week the barley, oats, and millet kept growing and producing new seed heads until frost, the sorghum tried but my growing season is too short. I haven't grown wheat that way yet.
Definitely lots of work too harvest, especially if the only equipment you have for harvesting and threshing is scissors, gloves and a bucket.
I have some hulless purple barley, threshes fairly easy by hand, send me a pm if your interested.
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ethin
gardener
Plant Breeder and Graphic Designer in Cache Valley Utah, USDA Zone 4b
Posts: 214
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Post by ethin on Jan 16, 2016 19:48:11 GMT -5
I also have a question about oats. The oat groats are covered in fine throat irritating hairs, how would one deal with them?
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Post by raymondo on Jan 16, 2016 21:50:09 GMT -5
I grow an Ethiopian hulless barley from time to time. It does have hulls of course but the seed is held loosely and comes away easily. It's an easy, minimal care crop. I've had no issues with poor seed set. It's only a two row barley so not as high yielding I guess as the modern multi-row cultivars. I add barley to soups in winter so that's all it gets used for. If I had chickens I'd probably grow it more often as grain for them.
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dave
gopher
Posts: 18
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Post by dave on Jan 17, 2016 0:43:51 GMT -5
I don’t have any experience growing Oats or Barley, but I bought some hulless Oats last year and then didn’t have room to plant it, so I’ll plant it this spring as soon as the soil is dry enough to work. In my area, we are very dry until the rains return late Sept or early Oct, so I should be able to harvest it easily(?). Can I grow enough for a bowl of oatmeal every morning??? I bought my Oats from Johnny’s and they still show it in their catalog here: www.johnnyseeds.com/p-6764-hulless-oats-streaker.aspx
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