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Post by walt on Aug 31, 2016 17:02:44 GMT -5
Years ago, I liked to grow some Polar Vee F1 sweet corn, just so I wouldn't have to wait so long for the first taste of sweet corn of the summer. Then I thought about crossing it with Gaspe Flint and O'odham-60-day flour corn, the 2 earliest corns I knew of in those days.
It was a good idea. The hybrid vigor the American corn industry is built on is from crossing northern flint with southern gourdseed. Gaspe Flint is the most northern flint there is. O'odham-60-day is probably related to southern gourdseeds. Generally, southwestern corns give similar hybrid vigor as the southern gourdseeds.
I inter-crossed those 2 OP early corns and crossed them with Polar Vee F1 for the su gene. The result was a very early sweet corn, early enough I called it ASAP, for "as soon as posssible", for any of you non-native English speakers. Well, the time wasn't right. Divorce and such, and I lost the land. A few moves and I lost the seeds. Now I'm retired and am trying to do all the things I couldn't do sooner.
Thanks to Google, I've found more possible breeding stock. Native Seeds/Search still has O'odham-60-day. A few others have Gaspe Flint but are out right now. Next spring then. Instead I'm using Alberta Clipper, a dent from Oikostreecrops.com which is very early. I'll also throw in Amazing Alberta Flint from Sandhills Preservation. Polar Vee seems to be gone, but there are Yukon Chief and Yukon Supreme with su.
My earlier attempt gave me a corn with the kernels flat against the cob. To fight that, in addition to just selecting for upright kernels, I want to bring in the shoepeg trait from Country Gentleman and the pencilcob trait from Pencilcob. That should squeeze the kernels up a little.
Right now I'm trying to cross Alberta Clipper with Bodacious F1 for the su se genes. Alberta Clipper and O'odham are in 1 gallon pots in case of early frosts. I'll try Gaspe and the others x O'odham in the greenhouse when they arrive this fall or winter.
I'll know more when I make all the F1 crosses next year, but I think I'll keep O'Odham-60-day at about 50%, to exploit the southern x northern hybrid vigor. I strongly expect the rest to be Gaspe relatives, but I don't know yet.
Back about 1982 Dr. Clarence Genter presented a paper to a corn-sorghum conference, I forget which one, presenting his efforts to develope a high-yielding population by recurrent selection the the progeny of a commercial F1 hybrid corn. He made 256 sib-crosses each year and grew replicated trials, then selected based only on yield and % moisture at harvest. Then he'd intercross the 16 best sib-groups adnd intercrossed them and made another 256 sibcrosses for the next generation. By the F13 his population was outyielding the F1 hybrid he started. And the caculated co-efficient of inbreeding was about equal to that of an F3 population from a single selfed F2 plant. That's why I want the maximum hybrid vigor at the start.
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Post by reed on Aug 31, 2016 18:39:33 GMT -5
Sounds like an interesting project. I just started learning about plant breeding a couple years ago with a goal of being able to sustain my own despite the fact that I have very limited space and can only grow small populations. Especially with corn which I'v learned is highly prone to genetic depression I'm trying to mix as many kinds as possible in an effort to eliminate that problem for a good long time even after the initial mixing is done and I start selecting for specific traits.
For sweet corn I started with Astronomy Domine, an already highly diverse su sweet corn that I acquired from Joseph Lofthouse here on the forum. I mixed it with approximately 40 other su, se and se+ varieties, mostly with maturity of 75 days or less. This year I added in Bodacious and Delectable because of their reported disease resistance. I lost multiple plantings to squirrels and coons but currently have about 30 nice ears finishing up on the patio. I dug the whole plants and plated them loosely in big tubs and water them every day, it seems to be working. The have been there for two weeks and are abut ready I think. We ate the rest of the patch then.
Last year I also detasseled Painted Mountain and crossed it to the sweet collection. I have about a pint of that seed. I was also able last year to plant the F1 of that cross and get an F2 that segregated about 25% sweet. I lost of this spring's planting to the critters but still have plenty of those F1 and F2 to start again next year.
I want to now marry both generations of the Painted Mountain, Aunt Mary's, Early and Often and a few other 70 day or less varieties with the seed from the slightly longer season stuff from this year. I hope to achieve that mix next year and if things go well two generations of it. I also want it ASAP but at the suggestion of a forum member I'm calling it Hoosier Daddy.
I started out just to tell you abut Aunt Mary's. It is a very good white su that matures quick. You can get it from Appalachian Heirloom Plant Farm.
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Post by walt on Jan 14, 2017 14:25:36 GMT -5
It has been a while since I shopped for early corn. It is that time of year again. I never found a description of Yukon Chief that clearly said it was su. But the general description suggested su to me. of all the various genes giving sweet corn, su, su se, sh-2, brittle, etc, su gives the least problem germinating in cold soil. At least that usedd to be true. Recurrent selection for germinating in cold soil has improved other types. I'll be growing what Carol Deppe calls sister varieties with sh-2 and su se to see how they do. But my main population will be su for now.
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Post by keen101 (Biolumo / Andrew B.) on Jan 14, 2017 20:05:28 GMT -5
I want to bring in the shoepeg trait from Country Gentleman and the pencilcob trait from Pencilcob. That should squeeze the kernels up a little. cool. I'd love to see what you come up with. I think both of those traits are interesting in corn.
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Post by walt on Jan 17, 2017 14:06:42 GMT -5
Yes. Sounds good, but one never knows until one tries.
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Post by walt on Apr 25, 2017 17:02:57 GMT -5
About 2 weeks ago I started a seed a day each of O'odham 60-day Flour corn from NS/S and Gaspe Flint. Each day I put one seed of each into a bottle and add water. After soaking overnight, I drain the bottle. After that, I rince the seeds twice daily. When the seeds are well sprouted, I plant them in the garden. I know from past experience that the Gaspe grows and matures fastest if the spring is long and cold. If the spring turns hot, O'odham matures fastest. By planting one seed of each daily, I can be sure thy will overlap. I should get many ears of crossed seed. I also planted Country Gentleman and Golden Bantam, sprouted, but all at once, not one daily. I should have pollen and silks enough to cross each with each of the early varieties. I thought I'd also planted Yukon Chief, but I hadn't. I started it today. Pencil cob isn't even ordered yet, and won't be until my next SS check comes. But I expect to get it crossed with both early varieties, or with the F1 hybrid of O'odham and Gaspe. Either is good. I'm hoping and expecting to get F2 seed by fall of O'odham x Gaspe, O'odhan x Yukon Chief, and Gaspe x YC. I also want to have (O'odham x gaspe ) x a se and a sh2 corn by fall. I'm not sure which I'll end up using. I'll carry both a couple of generations and see which best stands cold soil and which tastes best.
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Post by reed on Apr 26, 2017 3:42:16 GMT -5
I have several short season varieties mixed together. Yukon Chief, Orchard Baby, Spring Snow (se), Blue Jade, Early and Often, Early Sunglow and don't know for sure what all else. Also have them mixed in with lots of longer season things including a dozen or so se but kept the initial mix mostly at varieties under 75 dtm. Some of the absolute earliest may be selecting back out as I'm not saving seed from plants that tassel at four feet or less. Also have the above crossed onto detasseled Painted Mountain, Hopi Pink and Oaxacan green Dent. I probably have fifty varieties all together including AD.
I was looking at seeds last night to plant another patch today and realized I have pretty much lost track of what I have and have absolutely lost track of what is crossed with what. I'v reached the point where variety names are meaningless, which was an initial goal. Now it's just to select for traits I like. My first patch is growing now and hope to be able to have two generations in one season again this year.
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Post by walt on May 22, 2017 11:09:59 GMT -5
It has been 50 days I have started a seed of Gaspe Flint and a seed of O'odham 60 Day Flour corn every day.
It has been quite cool some days, so they won't be producing at 60 days. Not even showing signs of tassel or ear. Looking good though. I still have 50 seeds of each, and I'll continue to start a seed of each daily at least until I have hybrid seed of them to start daily.
In addition, I have Golden Bantam, Country Gentleman, Yukon Supreme, Early Extra Sweet Corn (sh-2) F1, Bodacious (su. se) F1, and Pencil Cob. All these were started each as a bunch, so they can be used for eating, after using their pollen to pollinate GF, O-60-day, and/or their hybrid. All are well established and looking good.
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Post by walt on May 25, 2017 21:52:02 GMT -5
Today I saw the tips of tassels sticking out of the top of 2 Gaspe Flint plants. As i've said before, I'm starting one seed of Gaspe Flint and one seed of O'odham 60 day Flour every day. So why were the 13th and the 15th plants planted the first to show tassels? They would have been planted 2 weeks after the one at the start of the row. No hint of ears yet.
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Post by steev on May 26, 2017 0:11:53 GMT -5
They're just messing with you; plants have a snotty sense of humor.
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Post by walt on Jun 1, 2017 9:01:20 GMT -5
Yesterday 2 Gaspe Flint plants shed pollen. Those plants had no ears showing, but 2 others did, with some silks showing. So I collected those tassels and 2 others, planning to make pollinations today. But it is raining lightly today. It is expected to clear off latter, si matbe the pollinations can still be done. No sign of O'odham 60 Day tassels or ears yet, so the important cross can't be made,but multiplying the Gaspe is worth doing. I'm busy working new ground for the F1 generation. That's faith.
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Post by walt on Jun 26, 2017 14:00:53 GMT -5
We had a long cool spring. Lately there have been some hot days, over 100 F a couple of days ago.. Gaspe Flint went ahead and tasseled. O'ogham put out some silks, but not many. I got a few pollinaions, 4 or 5. Not worth the extra time spent growing them. but we never know how the weather will be, so I try to cover all the bases, just in case. Now that it is warmer and days are longer, O'odham is starting to put out tassels and more silks. Polar Supreme has been tasseling and silking, one every 2 or 3 days, for the last 10 days. I think it has been messed up by the season too. The remaining Polar Supreme plants are more organised. The Gaspe plants planted the first month bloomed, those that did bloom, bloomed on stalks that were 18" to 24" tall and thinner than a pencil. They had 5 leaves, each 1/2 to 3/4 inch wide. Miniatures. Now that it is warmer, the Gaspe plants are thick sturdy plants, 2 1/2 to 3 feet tall. Tassels are 3 times as thick, and 2 or 3 branches, unlike the short branchless tassels it had been making.
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Post by walt on Jul 10, 2017 22:02:28 GMT -5
I have had moderate success. Gaspe x O'odham and reciprical Gaspe x golden Bantam O'odham x Early Extra Sweet F1 and reciprical O'odham x Bodacious F1 I still have Pencil Cob to bring in. Its first tassel showed today. And I'll have O'odham silks the next 2 days I think. Does anyone know the inheritance of the pencil cob trait? I've read the Country Gentleman double seeds is due to 2 recessive genes and some adatioal modifiers. I'll need a big F2 to get that. I hadn't planned to use the commercial F1 corn as seed parents. But too few O'odham and Gaspe plants blooming at the right time made it necessary in order to be sure of getting enough seeds. I can use the F2s as pollen parents to keep the population numbers up, if I need to. I had planned to plant O'odham x Gaspe and reciprical now and squeeze in 2 more generations this summer. but the 100 F teperatures has made me think I should wait and be sure they will have good pollination weather. Maybe plant about August 7. The crosses of O'odham and Gaspe with other varieties can be planted as soon as they are ready as they will take longer.
i also have Golden Bantam x Bodacious and reciprical Country Gentleman x Bodicious and reciprical Golden Bantam x Early Extra Sweet and reciprical Country Gentleman x Early Extra Sweet and reciprical i have Long thought of crossing se and sh-2 (seperately) into OP sweet corn varieties. Since I had plenty of pollen and silks, and too few O'odham and Gaspe, I decided this was the time.
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Post by walt on Oct 3, 2017 14:17:19 GMT -5
This summer's second generation of Asap corn has both tassle (one) and silk (from one ear). Other plants may soon be blooming. But it may be too late. "Winter is coming". I will try pulling stalks and letting them ripen inside if they get far enough along. Thanks to who ever posted that method.
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Post by walt on Nov 3, 2017 14:09:02 GMT -5
I had only 3 stalks I thought worth bringing inside. Last night I saw the stalks had dried so I peeled back the husks. Suprise! I have good seed. Either it was further along than I thought, or ripening inside on stalks does more good than I expected. I had only 19 seeds, due to very poor pollination. But I got 2 generations of corn in one summer! And it wasn't a particularly long summer for here.
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