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Post by reed on Nov 8, 2017 10:56:11 GMT -5
I was researching about Zea diploperennis which is in the Neandercorn that I got from Joseph and I came across this old thread alanbishop.proboards.com/thread/1987/zea-diploperennis where folks had talked about using Zea diploperennis in effort to make a perennial corn. One problem among others is that even if Zea diploperennis is perennial it isn't winter hardy. It has occurred to me that a cross between Zea Mays and Johnson grass would be pretty neat but I figured it was impossible and never seriously thought about trying it. Then I came upon articles, behind login or pay walls where apparently some work has been done on zea mays X sorghum. I didn't read it cause sorghum also isn't winter hardy so not very useful. But Johnson Grass (S halepense) certainly is winter hardy. What if instead of crossing zea mays X zea diploperennis to get perennial corn you first crossed Johnson Grass x zea diploperennis. Grow it out and cross that to zea mays It's an easy expirement, the neighbor has an incredible Johnson grass patch so all I gotta do is clean out a little spot in the middle of it and plant a little zea diploperennis and keep it detasseled. Is there any chance of this working or is it just goofy?
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Post by walt on Nov 8, 2017 14:55:06 GMT -5
Of course it's goofy, but that shouldn't be a problem. The question is will it work? Zea x sorghum was first successful back in the 1970's. The result was a plant that had 2 sets of Zea chromosomes, 1 set of sorghum chromosomes. Pollination with Zea pollen resulted in some plants with 2 sets f Zea chromosomes and an added sorghum chromosome. The different seedlings had different sorghum chromosomes added. And CIMMYT has presumably maintained those lines. End of that story. I never heard or read of them being used. Not that they would have gone out their way to keep me up to date. Yes I've noticed titles that implied other such crosses but I haven't actually followed that work. GRIN has a sorghum accession that is easier to cross with other species that normal. I didn't write it down, as I am not going to be making such crosses. What I gather from my untrustworthy memory is that Zea and sorghum chromosomes don't pair very well and don't exchange DNA. So I don't think it'll do much good. But I'd love to be proven wrong. If I were trying this, I'd use Z. perennis, a tetraploid, rather than Z. diploperennis, a diploid. There are a few strains of tetraploid Z. maize for crossing it with. And S. halepense is tetraploid. I wonder if ZZSS tetraploids would be fertile both ways. Tetraploid Zea x Tripsicum, ZZTT is seed fertile but pollen sterile. And Tripsicum is more closely related to Zea than Sorghum is to Zea. If you try to take on this projectm sorghum pollen only grows as far in corn silk as the length of a sorghum style. Interesting.
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Post by reed on Nov 9, 2017 8:28:01 GMT -5
Yea, I imagine it is extremely unlikely. Still, I have the giant Johnson Grass patch across the road and I have the Z. diploperennis seeds so it's an easy experiment to carry out.
I have Z diploperennis that is definitely crossed to Z mays and some that looks like it might be more pure. I'll just clean a little spot in the Johnson grass keep the Z. diploperennis detasseled and see if anything happens. If I can locate some Z. perennis without too much trouble or expense I might try it too.
Maybe the elusive epigenetics which I'm pretty much totally ignorant of, will jump in and help out.
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Post by walt on Nov 9, 2017 13:59:09 GMT -5
The 2/3 Zea, 1/3 Sorghum plant I saw back so many years ago, had the very few seeds it made in the tassel, or the sorghum head, whichever you want to call it. I have never seen a picture or read a description of a 1/2 Zea, 1/2 Sorghum plant. I think it would be even more sorghumy.
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Post by reed on Nov 9, 2017 16:31:23 GMT -5
So they used zea as the pollen parent? I wouldn't even think of trying that, having never even closely examined Johnson grass flowers. I'll be going the opposite direction. I doubt it works but there is so much Johnson grass over there as long as I keep the zea from tasseling anything it makes that even looks half way like a seed would be like hitting the jackpot.
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Post by walt on Nov 10, 2017 13:34:34 GMT -5
The one I saw. the first ever I think, was from Zea x Sorghum. Dr. James had tried the cross in both directions, making several thousand pollinations. Each ear she counted as 300 pollinations. I think each sorghum head she also counted as a bout 300 pollinations, but I'm not sure. Out of this she got one seed. It was from Zea x Sorghum. She had peeled back the husks, trimmed (she said shaved) the silks short, 1/4 inch or less, and pollinanted, and put the husks back.
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Post by reed on Nov 11, 2017 5:21:11 GMT -5
So, I gotta pull back the shucks and trim the silks pretty much as short as possible, I can do that. Then I would need to make sure there was plenty of Johnson grass pollen available at the opportune time. That should be doable. Joseph's Neandercorn is what I'll be using and it seems to silk continuously over a long time so if some miss other might not. Also if I get that ambitious I can selectively mow sections of Johnson grass, I'v noticed if mowed down it can grow back and bloom later than that not mowed.
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Post by nicollas on Nov 13, 2017 1:49:51 GMT -5
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