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Post by oxbowfarm on Jan 22, 2018 15:32:02 GMT -5
I can only speak to my experience richardw. I grew Painted Mountain in 2012 or 2011 I think, and it did make a crop, a very early one. But I was also growing my own corn grexes and trialing other corns at the same time. That can help give a certain perspective on the relative performance of a group of varieties vs growing different corns isolated in time or place. My experience that year was that PM was the worst corn I had that year for foliar disease, and pretty close to the worst corn I've ever grown for ear rot. I've also communicated with Dave Christiansen personally as he was looking for farms to trial selected lines of PM for him out this way, specifically to look for better stalk and ear rot resistant lines, so I'd say he recognizes it as a weakness in PM that he is looking to correct. I don't want to seem like I am badmouthing Painted Mountain, its an amazing bit of breeding work, its just not that disease resistant. Very few varieties of any corn grow well everywhere. Fungal disease issues are very common with most North American Native American landrace/heirloom corns. |
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Post by farmermike on Jan 22, 2018 17:14:47 GMT -5
Pretty corn Day . In my garden PM matures very fast but a lot of ears tend to overshoot the shucks and attracts bugs and the like. I have crossed it to lots of other flour and flint corns and also have good amount crossed to a sweet swarm. I'll be growing a lot of these crosses this year. I want to keep the early maturity and small row number in mine so I'm putting up with the downside for now. What is you opinion of it, do you grind it for meal or anything?So... uh.... I've just been.... eating it? Like, dried uncooked kernels. I know it sounds bonkers, but it's an amazing 'fidget food' for when you're watching tv or something and need to keep your fingers out of the potato chips. I'd say about 50% of the ears have this amazing, nutty savory flavor that goes behind just the corn taste. Unfortunately I shucked all my B quality kernels, which are the ones I'm eating (from short ears, not filled out, etc), all at once before tasting each cob individually. So each one is a surprise. Even so, the ones without this flavor aren't bad, just taste more like normal dry corn. , have you tried parching it? I actually can't help munching on my flour corns raw, as I'm shelling them. In fact I have a tendency to try out all my corns that way, and it's a quick and easy way to determine the flint/flour ratio (I don't try it with anything that's obviously very flint, though). But when I parch those flour corns -- in a skillet or microwave, like popcorn -- they taste even better. I try to always keep a little bowl of them around to snack on. |
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Post by reed on Jan 22, 2018 17:46:43 GMT -5
Very few varieties of any corn grow well everywhere. When I first realized I needed to make my own rather than find one that worked I did a bunch of research and remember a paper from a university from back in the 1930s, if I remember right. It said almost exactly that, something to the effect that no corn grows and produces the same one place as it does in another. It also makes perfect sense that PM would have issues here. From what I understand, most all it's ancestors came from the arid southwest, mountains or northern plains. Add to that it has been selected and adapted to Montana, a very different place than the Ohio valley. Still it has a trait I really, really want in my corn and that is fast maturity. Long season like Cherokee White Flour, which I love, just takes too long, offering too much opportunity for something to happen to it. Ear worms for example are mostly a problem later in the season here. PM if planted early can mature before they become much of a problem even though they will eat it up if planted later. |
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Post by richardw on Jan 22, 2018 19:18:16 GMT -5
I might just have to buy some PM and try one of those seasons, wont be next summer as i want to grow out again my 'mixed' of sweetF1's and NZ heirlooms, could even be worth chucking in some PM also.
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Post by oxbowfarm on Jan 23, 2018 9:04:46 GMT -5
Day With regard to Corona type grinders, they make pretty lousy grain mills for dry grain. I own two of them, but I use them exclusively as WET grinders for making masa for tortillas, tamales, etc. If you want one of them, very inexpensive Chinese versions can usually be found on ebay and/or amazon. We used an $18 Chinese job for several years but there were several small parts that are very chintzy and I upgraded to a Mexican made Estrella grinder, which is exactly the same design but with much more robust construction on the small fixture parts, (knobs, bolts, screws, clamp feet, etc). For making cornmeal, there actually is not a perfect hand cranked solution on the market that I am aware of, we also own a Country Living Grain Mill (not cheap) which grinds wheat beautifully, and does effectively make nice cornmeal, but the rate at which it grinds cornmeal is much slower than the rate it grinds wheat. I attribute this to the grinding plate design, and the relief clearance that is machined into the plates to feed grain kernels into the burrs is not shaped properly for feeding corn sized kernels well. They just bounce out vs being forced into the plates, so the grinding speed/meal production rate is slow. This is true whether or not you are grinding very hard flint or very soft flour corn. Its about kernel size and shape vs hardness. They sell an attachment for the CLGM called the "corn and bean auger" that is supposed to help with this, but I have one and it has zero impact from what I can tell, not worth the money, although the rest of the mill is a great unit. I suspect that this is a universal problem with most home scale grain grinders, which are overwhelmingly expected to be processing wheat. With regards to crossing PM with Andean corns, I think that sounds like it might make a really interesting cross, but I don't see how Andean stuff will give you any tolerance for wet, humid conditions. Andean corn is adapted to cool, DRY conditions, with lots and lots of equatorial high altitude UV radiation. IE, essentially zero fungal disease issues in its native environment because its dry, and bathed in spore killing ultra-violet radiaton every day. I'd try adding in some Coroico genetics, which are from the other side of the Andes down in the rainforest. Coroico is the most tolerant/resistant corn to Northern Leaf Blight I've ever grown. And its got lots of interesting ear and kernel characters, if you are into that kind of thing. I have lots of it if you want some.
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Post by oxbowfarm on Jan 23, 2018 9:14:59 GMT -5
reed Did I send you some of the Tarahumara Golden Cristalino in that box? If you are looking for fast corn, that is one you should try.
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Post by reed on Jan 23, 2018 10:09:11 GMT -5
reed Did I send you some of the Tarahumara Golden Cristalino in that box? If you are looking for fast corn, that is one you should try. I don't think so, you sent some of the Coroico and some of that absolutely beautiful Oxbow white flour corn but that one doesn't ring a bell. I'm just guessing since it came for a shorter season area the white flour is faster maturing also. If it isn't don't tell me cause I'm planting it anyway. |
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Post by richardw on Jan 23, 2018 12:19:28 GMT -5
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Day
gardener
When in doubt, grow it out.
Posts: 171
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Post by Day on Jan 24, 2018 15:10:49 GMT -5
With regards to crossing PM with Andean corns, I think that sounds like it might make a really interesting cross, but I don't see how Andean stuff will give you any tolerance for wet, humid conditions. Andean corn is adapted to cool, DRY conditions, with lots and lots of equatorial high altitude UV radiation. IE, essentially zero fungal disease issues in its native environment because its dry, and bathed in spore killing ultra-violet radiaton every day. I'd try adding in some Coroico genetics, which are from the other side of the Andes down in the rainforest. Coroico is the most tolerant/resistant corn to Northern Leaf Blight I've ever grown. And its got lots of interesting ear and kernel characters, if you are into that kind of thing. I have lots of it if you want some. Thank you for the info -- I based most of my climate and Andean corn research on this book: www.ars.usda.gov/ARSUserFiles/50301000/Races_of_Maize/RoM_Peru_0_Book.pdfIt was written in 1961, so arguably climate change has effected the temperatures, however the mountains haven't moved much so the micro climates remain much the same. However, you're right about the climate. I was confused for a minute, because I swore I read otherwise. The varieties I'm growing (Pisccorunto and Cuzco Gigante) are from the Southern Cuzo and Apurimac regions, ranging between 2,300 to 3,300m above sea level. But then it hit me -- I realized I'd been so north-hemisphere-centric that I did not take into account that their growing season is not the same as their rainy season, as our summer months are their winter months. Duh. I'm just gunna go put on the dunce cap and go sit in the corner for a bit. XD The book does also have a chapter on Coroico, though it goes by the name Piricinco (p.215). Interesting read! I may take you up on that offer in the future, though for this season my garden is already bursting at the seams, and then some. reed - if you need more Painted Mountain just let me know, happy to send some. I've been selecting for two to three generations now (it's a grex, in the Alan Kapuler sense) for my climate, which I'm sure if quite different than Indiana, but you're still welcome to it. farmermike - I have not yet, no, but I will give it a shot now! I've never much liked corn nuts and all that, so the idea never appealed to me. But I realize now that the corn itself can have a lot to do with the flavor. So I'll definitely be giving it a try with Painted Mountain. |
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Post by reed on Jan 24, 2018 16:51:59 GMT -5
Day , I also admit to eating raw dry corn, I used to really chow down on what ever the white field corn my Granddad grew was. I don't think it was Cherokee White Flour but kernels were similar. His white sweet corn I'm now pretty sure was a variety called Aunt Mary's. If I was to make the commitment to keep any corn pure it would be Aunt Mary's. I also really like parched corn, it is nothing like the salty corn nuts stuff they sell in stores. Dry sweet corn is good that way too. Thanks for the kind offer but I don't need any more Painted Mountain, I just wanted its genes mixed into mine.
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Post by oxbowfarm on Feb 1, 2018 8:13:12 GMT -5
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Day
gardener
When in doubt, grow it out.
Posts: 171
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Post by Day on Feb 1, 2018 13:01:08 GMT -5
oxbowfarm - Thank you for sharing, I really appreciate it! Learned a lot from the video and your information in the comment. I'll definitely check out his other videos in future as well. The Pisccorunto I grew last year (and am growing again) is K'uyu Chuspi as well, so I'm very familiar with the speckling trait he spoke about. One reason I chose it as one of the Andean parents was that it made it easy to see the crossed kernels on all but those with the darkest pericarp, meaning I didn't need to bag (which was great because the tassels were too tall and I couldn't get my ladder between the stalks anyway!) Both a beautiful, and a useful trait for crosses since it isn't common at all in Mexican/American available corns. I do think Navajo Bird's egg displays the same pattern, but don't quote me on that.
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Post by blueadzuki on Feb 1, 2018 22:01:03 GMT -5
It's a little different. Usually NRE corn has splashier spots (that's actually why its planted. Navajo believe the spots resemble rain spatters so planting it is supposed to bring rain). Andes corn tends to have tighter spotting. Baker creek also seems to have another spotted corn now link |
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Post by esoteric_agriculture on Feb 2, 2018 18:08:27 GMT -5
Hello friends, I am the owner/ creator of the Esoteric Agriculture YouTube channel Oxbow kindly linked to.
I’ve been around HG since the start, but have had more than one handle and have always done more lurking than posting. Many of the best minds are to be found here, and I often feel I don’t have much to add. A few comments worth adding- here in South Central Pennsylvania, all of the South Western or high plains flour corns are utterly Ungrow- able. I have tried Painted Mountain, Lavender Mandan, Papa’s Red, a few others, Oxbow is correct regarding their extreme disease susceptibility. I also find that 100% will lodge if not supported somehow. I had much better success with Cherokee White Flour this year. I also grew K’uyu Chuspi Corn this year, I believe 2 plants tasseled for me. One plant even silked, but the silk and tassel times did not line up well, I only got 2 pure Chuspi kernels. I did however get lots of crosses with both sweet and Flint Corn I am very excited to grow out this year. I plan to make a video yet this Winter regarding seed companies- I’ll give my opinion on Bakers Creek then. The Corona mill is torturous to grind Flint corn, but not too bad for flour corn or sorghum. Love all the beautiful corn pictures, very inspirational! 👍🏻
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Day
gardener
When in doubt, grow it out.
Posts: 171
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Post by Day on Feb 3, 2018 1:43:59 GMT -5
I also grew K’uyu Chuspi Corn this year, I believe 2 plants tasseled for me. One plant even silked, but the silk and tassel times did not line up well, I only got 2 pure Chuspi kernels. I did however get lots of crosses with both sweet and Flint Corn I am very excited to grow out this year. Hello! Very similar story with my K'uyu. I have a big ash tree in my yard and planted the K'uyu in the afternoon shade line. It did trick a few stalks into thinking daylength was decreasing, so I ended up with ok tassel times at 90 days from direct sow. But the silking was more erratic. I had only one stalk that tasseled and silked within a week of itself, and was able to get a small ear's worth of selfed K'uyu from it. Not ideal, but I'll take it. The rest crossed with Painted Mountain and with White Nighting dent. The offspring are currently growing and a little under a foot tall. I'm also excited to see how our crosses do -- please keep us posted! Apart from the silking issue, how was K'uyu's tolerance to disease/pests for you? Mine were a favorite of aphid farming ants, so much so that they never even touched the painted mountain and only bothered one stalk of the Nighting. The aphids went absolutely bananas on the K'uyu. |
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