andyb
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Posts: 179
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Post by andyb on Oct 2, 2015 0:23:17 GMT -5
I've been working on a few different cilantro breeding projects. Two of them have F1 seeds in bags waiting for a growout this winter or next spring. I'll put some notes in this thread, probably spread out over a few posts.
I got the vegetable breeding bug after reading Carol Deppe's Breed Your Own Vegetable Varieties. I was particularly taken with her comment that amateurs like me can take bigger risks with our breeding projects because, unlike a professional breeder, my job doesn't depend on the success of the projects. So, one of the plants I'm working with cilantro. It's a minor crop, getting almost no attention from professional breeders. It's also been very lightly developed and varieties haven't been terribly well maintained. It's a nice small pond to spend some time in.
I've purchased about 20 different packets of seed from a number of different seed companies, and there are only a few named varieties available in the US that I haven't gotten my hands on. I also requested three accessions from GRIN and was pleased that they granted my request.
Looking closely, I've seen quite a bit of variability in just about every characteristic of the plants I've grown. Even between plants from a single seed packet, there is usually quite a bit of variability. Only a few, like Sunmaster, show signs of strong selection for uniform growth.
Two of the accessions from GRIN are particularly interesting. AMES 21655 and PI664510, from Armenia and Syria respectively, averaged a couple weeks later bolting than any of the domestic varieties. The Syrian plants were by far the most vigorous and fast-growing of any I've tried, and some individual plants didn't start bolting until more than a month after every domestic plant I grew (~90 this spring) had bolted. Unfortunately their flavor is kind of muddy.
So, I have two main projects.
The first started with the two late-bolting GRIN accessions and a grab-bag of the domestic varieties. I'll mass- and possibly lineage-select for good taste, vigor, and late bolting. Hopefully I'll end up with a variety that grows well in my region.
The second is the slightly crazy one. I figure carrots have big edible roots, as do parsnips, some celery, some parsley, etc. Cilantro is pretty closely related and has a small, chewy, but edible root. So I started with as much diversity as possible and will select for large monolithic roots. Maybe they'll get big in a few generations. Maybe they'll even taste good. Who knows, but I'm sure having fun.
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andyb
gardener
Posts: 179
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Post by andyb on Oct 1, 2015 23:06:37 GMT -5
I've seen some relatively large and spiky chayotes at asian markets here in Seattle but no white ones. Odd things pop up occasionally, so I'll keep my eyes open.
I'll start a new thread for my cilantro breeding projects, but one of them is an attempt to get a good tasting and slow bolting variety by using some particularly slow bolting accessions from GRIN. I currently have some seed-borne disease issues, so I don't want to share any seeds, but once they're clean I'd be glad to send out some F2+ seeds.
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andyb
gardener
Posts: 179
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Post by andyb on Sept 30, 2015 23:53:38 GMT -5
I like your fava bean project, ilex. It's interesting to think about how projects with inbreeding and outbreeding plants would lead to different experiences for a child. Both good, but different.
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andyb
gardener
Posts: 179
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Post by andyb on Sept 15, 2015 0:15:28 GMT -5
Right, it's probably a bad idea to select for almond-scented lima beans.
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andyb
gardener
Posts: 179
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Post by andyb on Sept 14, 2015 22:50:39 GMT -5
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andyb
gardener
Posts: 179
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Post by andyb on Sept 13, 2015 0:38:13 GMT -5
Flowerweaver, can you maintain a line of chayote in your area of Texas, or do you have to buy new fruits to plant every season? The short book I linked to talks a lot about how difficult it is to maintain ex-situ germplasm collections, since the seeds aren't viable without the fruit and the fruits can't be stored for a significant length of time.
I haven't grown them myself but might try them next year.
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andyb
gardener
Posts: 179
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Post by andyb on Sept 13, 2015 0:26:33 GMT -5
I encourage people who don't like cilantro to emphatically plant zero cilantro plants in their gardens each year.
I have a couple of cilantro breeding projects going and was chatting with a friend about them. She can't stand the flavor and asked if it would be possible to breed a variety that didn't have the soapy taste. I replied that it might be possible but, since I don't taste that soapy taste, she'd have to try a leaf from about a hundred plants each generation and rank them in order of awfulness. She declined.
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andyb
gardener
Posts: 179
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Post by andyb on Sept 12, 2015 1:35:15 GMT -5
I found a series of short books by Biodiversity International, formerly IPGRI, called "Promoting the conservation and use of underutilized and neglected crops." These are a good complement to "The Lost Crops of the Incas" and "Lost Crops of Africa" that Kevin8715 pointed to here. The one on cilantro is an excellent reference that I go back to over and over. As a teaser, here are some links (all are big pdf files): Chayote CorianderOregano
You can see a list of all 25 on the Biodiversity International web site: biodiversityinternational.org
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andyb
gardener
Posts: 179
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Post by andyb on Aug 30, 2015 17:47:01 GMT -5
Agreed on the information-sharing. I've learned a lot while browsing through the archives.
Nathan, your list of resistant varieties is better than I've been able to dig up. Any tips on finding that sort of information?
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andyb
gardener
Posts: 179
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Post by andyb on Aug 30, 2015 1:11:45 GMT -5
Since Defiant is heterozygous for two dominant(ish) late blight resistance genes, on average 1/4 of your cross should be heterozygous for both as well. If you grow 11 plants, this will give you a 95% chance of getting at least one plant with both genes. On average, you're likely to get 2 or 3 plants.
If you save selfed seed from these plants, slightly more than half of the F3 generation should have at least one of both genes. With more selfing and by selecting only the disease resistant ones, the odds get better with each generation.
I don't know how much room you have, but this might be good enough to start with. If you don't like what makes it through the first screening, you can always roll the dice again the next year by planting more F2 seeds.
The main appeal of using Iron Lady or one of the other homozygous varieties is that you get to skip the first step of this process, since all of the children of the first cross will be heterozygous for both genes. As far as disease resistance goes, by the end of next season you should be at the same place if you start over with Iron Lady or if you successfully do the screening with the Defiant cross. I'd say that what you have right now could lead to a fun project.
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andyb
gardener
Posts: 179
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Post by andyb on Aug 28, 2015 1:44:23 GMT -5
Zach, I think I might take you up on your offer of some Lizzano F2 seeds.
I did some googling and couldn't find out which resistance gene(s) it has or whether they are homozygous or heterozygous. Looks like most resistant varieties are heterozygous and F1 hybrids, which makes sense. In any case, if the F1s were heterozygous I could test out my procedure for screening for resistance genes with the F2s. If they were homozygous, compact plants like that might be really convenient in the early years of the project.
Thanks!
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andyb
gardener
Posts: 179
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Post by andyb on Aug 23, 2015 16:53:30 GMT -5
templeton, the back crossing scheme is right out of Carol Deppe's newest book except that, instead of using an established heirloom variety, I'll use the current generation of the variety my son is selecting. The jumping around in the first few generations should add to the fun.
philagardener, I think we get late blight most years when the fall rains start. I'm planning to play around with some resistant varieties in the next couple of years so I guess I'll find out. In any case, if it doesn't hit me one year, I can just replant the next year.
nicollas & verdeperto, Iron Lady is a good candidate for the resistant variety. I could include it from the start, but then I'd have to decide whether to fix the trait and delay another year or two before letting my son start selecting his favorite, or to just take my chances and maybe not get the resistance at all. By doing the back crossing in parallel, it keeps the resistance part of the project from muddying my son's part and increases the chance of getting the resistance in the final variety.
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andyb
gardener
Posts: 179
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Post by andyb on Aug 23, 2015 0:39:38 GMT -5
I have a 1 1/2 year old son and he absolutely loves tomatoes, so I want to help him breed his own variety of tomato as he's growing up.
The core plan is to start with a four-way cross of very different varieties. Each year from the F2 on, I'll plant some number of plants and let him pick his favorite. Seeds from his favorite will be the F(x+1) generation.
That's all pretty simple and should work out just fine. I'll over-plant and cull any weak plants each year and will save backup seeds in the freezer in case of disaster.
The interesting bit, and the part of the plan I'd like feedback on, is that I'd like the final tomato to have late blight resistance. My plan for that is to start with a cross between a resistant variety and the selected F2 plant. Each following year, I'll grow out a separate batch of seeds, evaluate for resistance, and make crosses with the plant my son selects.
It should be like a normal back-crossing project to introgress disease resistances to a variety, but done at the same time as breeding the variety itself. By doing it this way I can keep the basic project really simple and always keep my son's favorite tomato each year without having to worry about genetic drag from the resistant tomato. Shouldn't take too much extra space since all I care about is getting a tomato or two for seed while evaluating disease resistance.
What do you think?
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andyb
gardener
Posts: 179
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Post by andyb on Aug 18, 2015 0:55:08 GMT -5
Hi all. I've been lurking for a while, enjoying the discussions on this forum, and figured I should introduce myself.
I'm living and gardening in Seattle, Washington (USA) and have some small raised beds in my back yard. I also volunteer with a local urban farm, where I can pursue some larger vegetable breeding projects.
Right, so I'm in to vegetable breeding. I read Carol Deppe's "Breed Your Own Vegetable Varieties" the winter before last and got the bug pretty bad. My current projects involve cilantro/coriander, dry beans, oca, and potatoes. My daydreams involve many more projects than I could ever do.
So far, being at the front end of multi-year breeding projects, I haven't done much more than murder a bunch of plants and get a few F1s, but I'm having a blast.
I'll post some details on individual threads.
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