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Post by walt on Oct 24, 2019 12:56:26 GMT -5
I made the cross in both directions.
Domestic corn gives a lot more pollen, and it was poured onto any Z. dip silks I could find. Problem was that Z. dip has few seeds per "ear". And the F1 hybrid seeds would grow part way out of the capsule, giving a weak waist that often broke, reducing percent good seedlings.
With domestic corn as seed parent, There was seldom enough Z. dip pollen to get full seed set. The few times there were several Z. dip tassels blooming with few domestic corn ears to pollinate, I got moderately well filled ears. And the seeds sprouted and grew well. I did open the ear husks and pollinated the domestic corn silks near were they attached, believing the Z. dip pollen wasn't adapted to the longer silks of domestic corn. That was done by other scientists pollinating corn with pollen from the short-silked tripsicum pollen.
The F1 hybrids had rhizomes and was perennial (in the greenhouse) no matter which was the seed parent. F1 plants had good fertility no matter which way the cross had been made. F2 seeds had the "waist" mentioned above, due to the seed being too big for the seed capsule and squeezing part way out.
F1 plants backcrossed well to either parent. F1 plant worked well as either seed or pollen parent. At least well enough.
F1 and f2 plants needed lots of water. Z. dip comes from cloud forest. That is like a rain forest except it is on mountains that stick up into the clouds.
F2 seedlings had variable amounts of rhizomes, as would be expected.
I don't remember if the project was stopped before or after the F3 seeds were grown. If the F3 was grown, it also needed lots of water. All the progeny did, even though some of the corn parents were drought tolerent varieties from Native Seeds Search. Other corn parents were Strawberry popcorn, Country Gentleman. Goldam Bantam, and some tripsicum-introgressed corn from Drs. Harlan and DeWet at U. of Illinois.
None of the plants showed worthwhile variation for cold tolerance except the tripsicum introgressed corn. Even it had little cold tolerance.
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Post by walt on Oct 10, 2019 11:23:36 GMT -5
Light freeze predicted for tonight. Record low for this date.
All my citrus hybrids will be inside with me. Even a few pure trifoliate oranges will come inside. They are hardy enough, but I will be keeping them inside this winter to get more growth on them, reducing time until they start production. I've been a citrus "breeder" for 6 years and still haven't made a single cross. I am growing out many F2 and backcross 1 F2 seedlings, but I'd really like to make planned crosses in addition to growing out progenies from other people's crosses. These include some very useful crosses, but I'd like to try additional crosses. Maybe next year.
I have trifoliate (hardy) orange trees 6 years in the ground. They would be 7 years old, due to one year in pots. They could bloom next year. Someone in Wichita, KS, 100 miles south of me, had seedling from the same trees bloom in 8th year. Also I have seedlings I started last winter and planted outside in the ground last spring. These are from a mutant that can bloom in one year from seed, sometimes. I read that they are slower to bloom in the shorter growing season in the north.
Non-hardy plants, like peppers, that are protected during the next two nights may be OK for 3 or 4 more weeks.
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Post by walt on Oct 2, 2019 13:09:58 GMT -5
Same here.
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Post by walt on Sept 25, 2019 2:23:43 GMT -5
tropicalfruitforum.com
I have learned most of what I know about citrus there. That is true even though I've read books on citrus, read scientific journal papers on citrus research, and asked and received answers from professional citrus scientists. In it is a link to an older citrus forum which is no longer active but can still be read. Many in the new forum were in the old one.
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Post by walt on Sept 16, 2019 11:04:15 GMT -5
Reed said "I think that is really what the natives and settlers did too. They got some seeds and the seeds grew into what the seeds wanted to grow into. They may have selected their favorites as I do but largely I think over the decades and centuries the corn turned itself into regional varieties by itself. I'v learned as they may have, that applying to heavy of a hand on selection just for my own preference is a bad idea.
Corn is different to me than most other crops, I don't know why and although I don't try to preserve or recreate what those that came before had I feel a connection when planting and harvesting it. I don't think they care that my corn isn't exactly the same as their's or even that I might be using some of theirs make mine. Like I said I'm not doing it, the corn is. "
I grew up drawing a lot, and I was concidered good at it. But when I started breeding perennial grains at the Land Institute, I decided I should never draw a picture of what I was working toward. In fact, I pretty much gave up drawing completely. That wasn't a conscience thought. Rather, if I couldn't draw what was in my heart and mind, why draw at all? But I knew I didn't know what perennial grains would look like. If I imposed a preconceived picture on them, I wouldn't be open to what I saw in front of me. I let the plant populations lead the way. I only imposed selection pressure on the populations for perennial habit and seed yield.
I'm not saying other should do this. Working with a long domesticatd crop is different, and people are different. Do what is best for you.
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Post by walt on Sept 16, 2019 10:37:14 GMT -5
Both types of melons I mentioned were truely wild. There was no history of domestic melons being used in Niger until recent introductions of domestic melons from Europe. Actually, though agriculture is ancient in that area, with sorghum, cowpeas, and pearl millet being domesticated in that general area, gardening has little history there.
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Post by walt on Sept 10, 2019 13:34:41 GMT -5
n 1978-1982 I was in the Republic du Niger, there were small. 10-15 cm. that grew wild, sometimes in dune soil as well as better soil. Temperatures got to 40+ C daily. And it was very dry. Sometimes when the ground was worked, after harvest, after the last rain of the year, the melons would grow and fruit. All were very bitter, but I wish I had collected seeds for breeding. There were also golfball sized muskmelons, with good smell but no flesh between the seeds and skin. They also grew under the same conditions.
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Post by walt on Sept 8, 2019 13:55:11 GMT -5
Fair to say that is great news and you are one of the very few people that would know this. I couldn't find anything on Z.dip x maize, that was based on annual teosinte ssp. mexicana paper and yes pollen genes from memory. If I get 50% it will be much easier. Did you just not plant the F1 seeds in the seed case? That is how I sowed the Zea dip, 90+% germination. I always removed the seed case from Z. dip. and its children. I don't remember even trying one still in its case as a control. The F1 seeds from Z. dip. x corn broke in half very easily. I just assumed it would be better if planted without the case. I tried to remove the case without breaking the seed. Sometimes I succeeded. I got to the point where I had lots of advanced generation seeds, more or less 1/2 corn, 1/2 Z. dip. By that time I'd selected for no case and good rhizomes. Then the plug was pulled on the project.
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Post by walt on Sept 7, 2019 14:43:51 GMT -5
Its been over 40 years since western science became aware of Zea diploperennis. But as far as I know, there are no perennial corn for eating, even in the tropics. Correct? I worked on it for 2 or 3 years starting 1982. Then I was shifted to perennial sorghum. I think the main problems for amatures have been lack of time and space. The main problem for professionals has been that it isn't quick and easy money. Have there really been other problems, at least in the tropics? Yes, it seems Zea diploperennis is somewhat neglected. I’m in a long day summer climate, but have germinated/ grown them in a growth room. Fair to say that I agree with you about why it hasn’t been worked with more. Hopefully, it’ll produce pollen soon and I can get some crosses done. 1% viable seed from maize crosses is what I’ve read for the non perennial teosinte. I would like to try and have crosses both ways to preserve the dip cytoplasm - but we will see what I can get. On a positive note in a growth room at 12 hrs day length it will probably continue to flower. 1% viable seed? I got more like 50% on Z. dip x popcorn and popcorn x Z. dip. Crosses with dent corn didn't do much worse. It could be that the Ga+, Ga, and Ga- pollen genes interactions could drop the % to 1. I don't know. My biggest problem with Z. dip x corn was the F1 seeds would get too big for the Z. dip seed capsules. They seeds would by shaped like an 8, and often broke in half. Solution was to be very careful. When that didn't work, check which half has the embryo and germinate it in clean conditions. Not sterile, but pretty clean. Sterile would be better I guess. Once germinated, they were as hardy as any corn seedlings. Corn x Z. perennis and Z. perennis x corn would be more like 1% or less viable plants maybe. That would be a ploidy issue though.
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Post by walt on Sept 6, 2019 13:19:03 GMT -5
Its been over 40 years since western science became aware of Zea diploperennis. But as far as I know, there are no perennial corn for eating, even in the tropics. Correct? I worked on it for 2 or 3 years starting 1982. Then I was shifted to perennial sorghum. I think the main problems for amatures have been lack of time and space. The main problem for professionals has been that it isn't quick and easy money. Have there really been other problems, at least in the tropics?
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Post by walt on Aug 29, 2019 11:11:35 GMT -5
In Kansas, deer damage to wheat is more crushing by sleeping in it, not so much from eating it. Wjeat farmers like deer hunters, as long as they behave. That is, don't break fences or leave gates open. Ranchers also like their land hunted. With no predaters to speak of, except humans, deer have become a problem, especially for people driving cars, but farmers and ranchers too. And gardeners and orchardists. I used to keep dogs in my garden. I had 3 dogs and they had to take turns. That worked pretty well.
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Post by walt on Aug 25, 2019 13:59:43 GMT -5
Intermediate wheatgrass is good forage for cattle, so I'm sure deer will eat rather that go hungry. But I don't know if it is one of their favorite foods. My garden is on the edge of a small town. Deer tend to stay away during spring and summer. In fall, dominant males push other males out of the woods along the rivers. Then they get in my garden and might eat somewheatgrass, but that doesn't hurt it. In winter, deer will eat anything, and they prune my fruit trees, which I don't like. But if they eat the wheatgrass, they don't hurt it. Wheatgrass blooms in spring and produces seeds early summer here. Seed is ripe a little later than wheat seeds.
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Post by walt on Aug 23, 2019 15:43:59 GMT -5
I've been gone quite a while. One of my brothers was dieing and I spent as much time as I could with him. I didn't plant a garden at all. I can garden next year, inshala. Spending time with my brother can't be done next year. It was strange, not having a garden. I've gardened for about, well, I don't even know when I started. But I've gardened 60 years at least. I did keep up with my citrus. And I've updated the cold hardy citrus thread. More can be learned on tropicalfruitforum.com .
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Post by walt on Aug 23, 2019 15:27:11 GMT -5
I've been gone quite a while. I just wrote a letter to Mr. Hong in Wichita, KS, which is a summery of where my citrus work has gotten to. I decided to post a copy here.
Jun 2 at 3:55 PM
Dear Mr. Hong,.
I doubt you would remember me, except that you likely don't meet many citrus breeders in Kansas. As you were so generous giving me so many poncirus fruit for seeds, I thought I should let you know if there has been any progress in breeding hardy citrus for Kansas.
When I started, I thought I'd have to make all the crosses except for a few F1 plants bred about a century ago. But once shared my plans on a citrus forum online, help came in from all directions. And I was suprized that no one made fun of my plans. Most of the online help was helpful advice, but some was breeding stock.
First, I must tell you why the attempt to breed hardy citrus a century ago failed. Many citrus, and poncirus, make seedlings that are clones of the seed parent. The pollen parent has no contribution at all. These are called nucellar seedlings. They are clones of the mother. They are useless for breeding. But the pollen of these citrus varieties can usually be used if a variety can be found that makes normal hybrid seedlings. These are called zygotic seedlings, and they are true hybrids and are useful for breeding.
Many citrus varieties have a few per cent of zygotic seedlings. This wasn't known a century ago, when hardy citrus breeding was given up as impossible. But knowing which varieties have higher percent zygotic seedlings tells us how many extra seedlings you have to grow to get a given number of hybrids to get a given number of hybrids to select from.
So a man in North Carolina sold me some fruit of US 852. It is tangerine x poncirus. It has 60% to 70% zygotic seeds. I now have about 50 seedlings from it. About 30 to 35 of the seedlings should be zygotic.. It is hardy in zone 8, and most years it can take a zone 7 winter, but not reliably enough to grow there except in protected spots, The fruit the seeds came in were very sour. Extremely sour. But I mixed the juice with water and sugar and it was good. Not great, but OK. Much better than I expected.
Someone else sent me fruit of Taitri. Taitri is Taiwan lemon x trifoliate orange. Trifoliate orange is of course poncirus. Taiwan lemon is not a lemon. DNA test shows it has no lemon ancestors. It is a sour orange, but it is used as a lemon in Taiwan, because it is much hardier than a lemon. True lemons are very sensitive to cold. Taitri is hardy in zone 8, less so in zone 7, much like US 852. No one knows the percent of zygotic seedlings Taitri has, but i see segregation for leaf shape, which tells me many are zygotic. I have about 50 of these seedling, too. The Taitri fruit had green flesh like limes, There was none of the unpleasant poncirus flavor, except it was very sour. I mixed it with sugar and water and it was OK.
I also received fruits of (Clem x tri) x Clem. That is the name it goes by. It is (Clementine x trifoliate orange) x Clementine. So it is 3/4 tangerine, 1/4 poncirus. I found the fruit to be more sour than I would want, but it could be eaten as is. It could be used in cooking or as a small part of a salad. It is hardy in zone 8. It has little or none of poncirus bitterness. I have about 10 seedlings, all zygotic.
Other helps I have received over the internet include:
-Precocious Poncirus trifoliata that blooms when only one year old, when grown in the south with a full year growing season. This will speed up breeding, but the trait is recessive. It won't show up until the second generation when crossed with good citrus,
-Flying Dragon Poncirus trifoliata. It is a dwarfing root stock for many citrus. But it also has 50% zygotic seedlings. That is very valuable for breeding. Most P. trifoliata are 0% zygotic,
-A mutant P. trifoliata called poncirus+, which lacks the bitter flavor of other P. trifoliata. It is also 100% zygotic! The lack of bitter flavor is also recessive. While Pocirus+ is in Europe, seeds were sent to someone in the states, and that person is sending me a tree grafted with all 7 seedlings from those seeds. -Seedless Kishu mandarin. Its seedless gene is dominant, so when its pollen is used on other citrus, half of the hybrid seedlings will be seedless. It is also an excellent flavored mandarin, though the fruits are size of a golf ball.
Other people working on more winter-hardy citrus that I know from the internet include:
-Ilya, in France. He discovered that the leaves of seedlings from poncirus hybrids can be tasted, those that will have the bitterness of poncirus will have bitter leaves. Thus seedlings can be sorted and useless ones can be discarded. Ilya has been breeding and selecting for many years and has a good collection. Included are some 3/4 poncirus, 1/4 grapefruit, which are only a year old. He used poncirus+ so they should not taste bitter.
-Kumin, in Pennsylvania, who planted 20,000 seeds from a orange x poncirus hybrid last year. This hybrid has 15% zygotic seedlings. So he had 3,000 second generation hybrids and 17,000 clones of the seed parent. The clones all died during last winter. But of the 3,000 zygotic seedlings, 12 healthy plants survived the winter! That is in zone 6! I never thought any of them would survive. I admire this work. -Mikkel, in Germany, is working on hardy citrus.
-SoCal2warm is working toward excellent flavored citrus for the state of Washington. His resulting seedlings selections can be crossed with my hardier but not so good flavored selections.
I'm sure there are others, but I am on an English speaking forum, so others working on hardy citrus might not use it. I am aware of a French forum, and mention is often made of Eastern European, Chinese, and Japanese breeding work.
So progress is being made much faster than I expected. And it is great fun. Thank you again for seeds,
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Post by walt on Aug 23, 2019 15:06:30 GMT -5
Oikostreecrops has seed. I got some from him last spring, but didn't get them planted. One of my brothers was dieing of cancer and my whole garden, except citrus, was put on hold. I can garden next year. If Ken doesn't send seeds to Europe, I can relay some to you. oikostreecrops.com/products/?route=product/category&path=107_113
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