My 3 (5) sisters garden experiment

[Alan]

So, I got creative yesterday and decided that I would make a small plot to use for the three sisters, the plot is about 30 X 50 and will be more for historical and research purposes than anything (a second 3 sisters plot will follow at the historical pioneer village/museum in Salem Indiana). I will actually be planting the 5 sisters, squash, beans, corn, sunflowers, and tobacco in these plots. I have settled on Hickory King corn, true cornfield beans, West Virginia Burley tobacco, and Mammoth sunflowers. The squash will be a mixture of compatible winter and pepo types, the reason for this is because the native americans seemed to have though of all squash as one type and allowed theirs to cross (i'm sure coming up with a lot of what we have today!) I won't be crossing the rare stuff untill I get some seed stock built up, however since this garden will make a return each year I figure I might run into some interesting squash types after a time.
-Alan

[johno]

Did you happen to read my article in the winter issue of The Heirloom Gardener? I touched on three sisters arrangements...

Will you be keeping the sunflowers by themselves?

Native Seeds/SEARCH has some southwestern varieties of squashes that yield multiple and variable fruit types, because of the common Native American practice of growing several types together and letting the most suited survive and cross-pollinate. You can buy them, or sign up as a test gardener and get them for free, as long as you report back results on how they do in your area.

I think someday I'm going to plant several of my favorite C. moschatas together and see what comes of it.

[Alan]

No, i havent seen that article Johno. Yes, the sunflowers will be planted on the outskirts of the garden but alternated between sunflower and tobacco. Thanks for the native seeds/search idea, I will check that out. If you can link that article someway or send me the basic info in a p.m. I would love to check it out.
-Alan

[downinmyback]

I thought sunflower put out a toxic to keep other plants from growing to close to them. They raise alot of sunflower in the river bottom to sell to one of the cooking oil company in Arkansaw. I remember hearing that they needed few chemicals to raise them as no weeds grew in a field of sunflowers and that they had few insects to bother them. I think the only problem was birds when they were ripe you had to cut them fast. My question was does sunflower produce a toxic.

[houseodessey]

I'd never heard that about sunflowers but there's a discussion about it here with a link or 2 that seem to support that they are allelopathic.

www.ubcbotanicalgarden.org/forums/showthread.php?t=14964

I have nutsedge which is also supposed to mess with my garden plants. I guess it's a good thing I didn't put out any sunflower seeds. Thanks for the tip, DIMB.

[houseodessey]

I'd never heard that about sunflowers but there's a discussion about it here with a link or 2 that seem to support that they are allelopathic.

www.ubcbotanicalgarden.org/forums/showthread.php?t=14964

I have nutsedge which is also supposed to mess with my garden plants. I guess it's a good thing I didn't put out any sunflower seeds. Thanks for the tip, DIMB.

[bunkie]

once again, am catching up here. i wanted to mention that we have planted sunflowers next to cukes and squash and green beans during different years and have had no problems. we rotate every year, even where the sunflowers go, and have had no problems with production or stunting, etc... of plants beside the sunflowers.

[flowerpower]

Don't Laugh at the link. At the bottom of the pg is a chart. It is called "How Plants Grapple With Pollutants".

www.kidsregen.org/educators/educators2.php?section=eduNga&ID=1

I knew I read an article on Sunflowers sucking up toxins. And I have never seen Sunflowers in an Iroquois 3 Sisters garden. Not even at The Iroquois Indian Museum. I don't know if the People did it in other parts of the country. I would think Sunflowers attract more nuisance animals than anything.

[Alan]

I know that they were used by local tribes here due to an archeological dig about 15 miles or so from the house, they have found seeds and some heads there grown alongside crops such as squash, corn, beans, tobacco and mints but other than that I can't really say, I do know there were some sunflowers also grown at angel mounds too, so maybe. I've never really noticed the sunflowers effecting too much of the growth around them, though it is possible that I just wasn't paying close enough attention.

-Alan

[Blueflint]

Many of the eastern tribes planted the sunflower around the edges of their fields, not actually in the fields. Remember their fields were sometimes quite large. Cherokee fields would range from 200 acres up to 1000 acres, simularly were the Shawnee, Miami and many Iriquois tribes.

I usually grow the Seneca Sunflower each year though some years I will grow the Arikara just for something different and to freshen up seed. I usually either isolate these plantings to keep pure or sometimes will bag the flower heads.

Blueflint

[Alan]

yep, that's how I did my sunflowers and tobacco, along the outside of the field. From what I understand though many tribes had specific rituals for tobacco which they considered so sacred that it had to have it's own plot and no one from outside that family was supposed to enter that plot.

[Blueflint]

Yes, I agree, most of the time tobacco was planted in a different plot. Tobacco was usually grown by the elders of the families or clans and tobacco was used for cerimonial purposes only, not for everyday smoking. Eastern Native Americans also would take tobacco with them when trading with other tribes as this was used to "seal the deal". These original tobaccos (nicotiana rustica) have a very high nicotine content, up to 20 times more than common smoking tobacco today (n. rustica) has. Many tribes today frown on everyday tobacco use and abuse as they feel if you abuse a plant like this you would also abuse other items in life.

Blueflint

[Alan]

These original tobaccos (nicotiana rustica) have a very high nicotine content, up to 20 times more than common smoking tobacco today (n. rustica) has.

Blueflint[/quote]

You mean Nicotiana Tobaccum for modern tobaccos I presume instead of N. Rustica. We have some Rusticas in our collection here on the farm as well. Rustica can potentially be a very dangerous plant, especially to non-smokers, but then again so can any form of tobacco. If only modern Americans would respect the plant the way that the natives did we would and could cut our cancer epidemic down dramatically and if we applied their ideas to the earth in general we would be much better off.

[Blueflint]

Yes, I was referring to N. rustica as having the extraordinary high nicotine...sometimes I think way faster than I write so it comes out a little scrambled. I agree with tobacco use...abuse that is.

Later this winter I'll send you another sample of the Shawnee Flour Corn, I have a couple pounds in the freezer. Nice attractive plants, good growth and vigor, very attractive ears. I am not sure when I'll get a chance to grow it again as this coming year's crop is already planned.

Blueflint

[Alan]

I'll make sure it has a nice isolation plot in an area with some dogs around to keep the coon damage to a minimum this year and will send you back some seed from the fresh growout. Thanks, I appreciate it.

-Alan