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Post by flowerpower on Apr 29, 2010 6:09:18 GMT -5
If you look closely at a purple podded pea, it's actually a green-podded pea with a layer of purple pigment on the surface of the pod. Rebsie, thanks for explaining that in such simple terms. The entire paragraph was very informative.
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Post by wildseed57 on Apr 30, 2010 21:54:27 GMT -5
Thanks Rebsie, I found your other post along with the links. To bad th color of th pods turns back to green when cooked, I was hoping that they wouldn't, perhaps that would be something to work on. Besides the the purple passion, I have two varieties that have black seeds when dried, one is a wild type from Ethiopia the small seeds are coal black round with no rinkles or dimples its a Abyssinicum subspecies, the flowers are quite small and are light purple. I'm assuming that the pods are green, I have not tried them yet to see what they might taste like. The other is called Nigro-Violaceum, the package says that it was collected in Germany and the seeds are almost the same as the one from Ethiopia only there are some seeds that are small round and green and supposidly a P. sativum, both are unusual and I plan to use them in my breeding program I'm setting up. If they are as easy to breed as my peppers and tomatoes that I'm working on I should get some very interesting stock to work with. I love varieties of vegetables that have a wide color range they make eating a wonderful experience, and beats the heck out the same old thing all the time. George
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Post by Rebsie on May 1, 2010 6:17:54 GMT -5
I haven't tried cooking the red-podded pea, but their basic pod colour is yellow, so when the anthocyanin dissolves it will revert to yellow rather than green. There's not anything I can do about the loss of colour - it is universal to all peas and beans. Anthocyanin is water-soluble, and no amount of breeding work is going to change that. To breed a purple or red-podded pea or bean which kept its colour would require a completely new genetic break. The anthocyanin would have to be infused right through the pod to such an extent that cooking couldn't flush it out, or some new non-soluble pigment would have to come into play. At the moment, no genes exist which would make this possible.
Instead, my aim is to breed edible red pods that taste good enough that you'd want to eat them without cooking!
Your wild species peas sound interesting, and I'm sure you'll have fun experimenting with them. Once you've mastered the basic technique of hand-pollinating peas, which you will find easy if you've worked with peppers and tomatoes, the rest is very easy as they're naturally inbreeding and you can just leave the F1 and F2 etc to self-pollinate. Best of luck with it!
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Post by blueadzuki on May 2, 2010 9:05:10 GMT -5
Thanks Rebsie, I found your other post along with the links. To bad th color of th pods turns back to green when cooked, I was hoping that they wouldn't, perhaps that would be something to work on. Besides the the purple passion, I have two varieties that have black seeds when dried, one is a wild type from Ethiopia the small seeds are coal black round with no rinkles or dimples its a Abyssinicum subspecies, the flowers are quite small and are light purple. I'm assuming that the pods are green, I have not tried them yet to see what they might taste like. The other is called Nigro-Violaceum, the package says that it was collected in Germany and the seeds are almost the same as the one from Ethiopia only there are some seeds that are small round and green and supposidly a P. sativum, both are unusual and I plan to use them in my breeding program I'm setting up. If they are as easy to breed as my peppers and tomatoes that I'm working on I should get some very interesting stock to work with. I love varieties of vegetables that have a wide color range they make eating a wonderful experience, and beats the heck out the same old thing all the time. George Intersting. I also have a few feral type peas I grow (I prefer to use the world "feral" as opposed to "wild" since, as my botany professors explianed to me peas are one of those crops (Like Fava beans, grasspea, etc.) for which no true "wild" ancestor population is formally aknowledged, due to it having been cultivated so long that ancient domestic populations have long since overgrown the pea's center of diversity, and it's a biut hard to determine which traits are "wild" versus selected a very long time ago. Most current theory assumes the wild ancestor to be Pisum roxbugii but this is still in some small debate over this). Most of mine in fact came from seed I picked out of bags of seeds (mostly chickpeas, other peas or lentils) or spices (usally coriander) while preparing the bags contents for cooking (I suspect that the reason is that in India (where most of the beand I found these things in are grown) these older variety peas (alnd with ancient varties of a lot of other leguminous crops) are used as green manure before the regular crop is grown and what gets in are seed from plants that were not plowed under (Of course I could be wrong about this) my "feral" peas fall into three main catergories (though due to interbreeding there are now really only two as two of the three have effectively merged. Group 1 (usually found in either "normal" dried eating peas or in Kala Channa (small brown grinding chickpeas): Similar to "modern" peas in all respects (seed size shape (smooth, sometimes a little dimpled) except in the flowes (two tones pink and purple much like those on the purple peas) and the seed itself (the gene for colored flowers in peas is very close to the one for seed coat having color, one usually comes with the other (or why white skinned peas usually (note I say usally not always) have white flowers and colored skinned peas rarely do) which has the brown and green or brown and pink mottling I've always referred to as the "camo" pattern (since to me it looks almost identical to military camoflauge) These peas taste okay though not great (the sad fact is that the more color genes you get in most legumes the more other subtances you get many of which make the peas or beans taste nasty or in extreme cases, dangerous to eat without leaching (this is why you can eat white seeded hyaciynth beans (what they call "Van Dal" in Indian cooking, but aren't supposed to eat the seeds of the black seeded, purple flowered and podded version that people grow as ornamentals in thier garden (though you can eat the pods of some of these when they are young, before most of the chemicals have developed). In fact this is what I usually do as these are a bit too long season for my area to save good seeds (we don't usally get a long cool period between the frost and full summer where I live, so what usually happens is that the summer heat usally gets high enough to wither the plants while the pods are still quite immature making for rather poor seed saving wise) On the bright side this is the type I find most often, so I do not usally lack for fresh seed to try again with) Type 2 (found in certin lentils): Smaller seeded than 1 (about half the size) This also usually has the "camo" trait as well as "peppering" (the little black speckles on the seed coat that you find in some strains like the "Golden Indian" it also has the most extreme squaring (the flattening caused by growing peas pressing up agaisnt eath other in the pod) I have ever seen in peas; the seed was quite literally cylindrical (I used to nickname them "drum peas"). This one produced a plant that is much smaller and thinner than the standard "modern" pea with much darker flowers (deep pink and blue purple) and pods about 1/2 to 1 third normal. It also matures a LOT faster (Its seeds were already ripe and dry when Type 1 was just flowering so were talking germination to maturity in about 45-60 days). I found this one way too bitter to eat, but it had pretty flowers so I kept growing it for those) this one crossed a lot with tye 3 (see below) so that after the first year, what I actually had was a mixed trait version which was more or less the same but without such extreme squaring (then again maybe my pea area just wasn't dense enough to cause the peas to pollinate so heavily that they were filled enough that such squaring could occur) Unfortunately a squirrel last year bit all my plants off at the base (no this wasn't pythium, they were actually bitten off) so I no longer have this type (okay I have 1 seed left, but that pea is now more than a decade old and probably dead, plus I sort of need it as a reference material) and can no longer get any from the orginal source (the brand of lentils I got this from was LOADED with seeds of this type (a hundred or so per 1lb bag of lentils) problem was it was equally heavily laced with grasspea seeds (which are poisonous in larger amounts and the USDA eventaully noticed. the packer switched sources and so no more peas (pity, while i certinly support the decision) the grasspea seeds in those bags (also a wilder type, and also now long lost) have the prettiest blue flowers (smaller than the flowers of the "Indian Pea" we grow in this country horticulturally, but much, much more intense blue) Type 3 (found in coriander) similar to type 2 but round seeded and even smaller (so small, in fact that until I looked at the hilum (scar on the seed coat where it was attached to the pod) I though they were vetch seeds (which imported coriander also often contains) as metione dabove this sort of mixed into type 2 as so was lost at the same time (and the brand of coriander seed that the Indian grocery stores around me now sell doesn't apper to have this seed.) so no luck there. that's all for now, wrist getting tired.
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Post by robertb on May 2, 2010 13:05:21 GMT -5
By 'camo' do you mean mottled in chestnut and olive brown, like Carlin Pea or Latvian Pea?
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Post by Rebsie on May 2, 2010 13:07:21 GMT -5
Similar to "modern" peas in all respects (seed size shape (smooth, sometimes a little dimpled) except in the flowes (two tones pink and purple much like those on the purple peas) and the seed itself (the gene for colored flowers in peas is very close to the one for seed coat having color, one usually comes with the other (or why white skinned peas usually (note I say usally not always) have white flowers and colored skinned peas rarely do) which has the brown and green or brown and pink mottling I'd never thought to pick out the 'oddities' in bags of Indian pulses and try growing them. I'm so inspired by the suggestion I've just been sifting through all my bags of pulses to see what goodies might be in there. As a result of which, I've just tipped half a bag of urid dall all over the floor of my music studio. Whoopsies. I'm very interested in what you say about the gene for seed coat colour being linked to that of flower colour. I'd noticed this but wasn't sure if it was caused by gene linkage or not. I've been doing several experiments with crosses of coloured varieties with white varieties, and in every case I've had the same link between seed coat colour and flower colour. So much so, I can tell just by looking at the F2 seeds which ones are going to produce purple flowers.
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Post by blueadzuki on May 2, 2010 14:31:20 GMT -5
By 'camo' do you mean mottled in chestnut and olive brown, like Carlin Pea or Latvian Pea? Yep, now that I've actually seen a picture of Carlin peas (I'd heard of them, but it never occured to me to look for a picture until now) actually the carlin pea and my type 1 may be the same stuff (the pictures seem to match well)
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Post by blueadzuki on May 2, 2010 15:00:53 GMT -5
Similar to "modern" peas in all respects (seed size shape (smooth, sometimes a little dimpled) except in the flowes (two tones pink and purple much like those on the purple peas) and the seed itself (the gene for colored flowers in peas is very close to the one for seed coat having color, one usually comes with the other (or why white skinned peas usually (note I say usally not always) have white flowers and colored skinned peas rarely do) which has the brown and green or brown and pink mottling I'd never thought to pick out the 'oddities' in bags of Indian pulses and try growing them. I'm so inspired by the suggestion I've just been sifting through all my bags of pulses to see what goodies might be in there. As a result of which, I've just tipped half a bag of urid dall all over the floor of my music studio. Whoopsies. I'm very interested in what you say about the gene for seed coat colour being linked to that of flower colour. I'd noticed this but wasn't sure if it was caused by gene linkage or not. I've been doing several experiments with crosses of coloured varieties with white varieties, and in every case I've had the same link between seed coat colour and flower colour. So much so, I can tell just by looking at the F2 seeds which ones are going to produce purple flowers. the two genes are really really close to each other in the chormasome practically side by side, though they are seperate genes (if they weren't the connection would be perfect and getting colored flowers on a white skinned pea really would be impossible.) I've never done urad myself but I suppose it is possible that you could find something (I'm assuming your urad are still whole, pre split beans germinate rather poorly). As Immentiod peas are hadly the only wild type legume that shows up (though it is one of the commoner). You may find grasspea of course (seed looks a little like a lentil but wedge shaped toward hilum side (think axe blade shaped) besides the odd pea, I often would find (and still do) pods of Trigonella polycerata (a wild realitve of the spice fenugreek) Medicago muricoleptis (a wild alfalfa with pods that resemble tiny spike seashells) two or three kinds of vetch ( Vicia sativa, and V.hirstua are the most common but other show up from time to time. wild lentils (about the size of a mustard seed) guar beans source of guar gum (look a bit like tiny grey common beans) and on two or three occasions near wild favas which were black and about the size of BB pellets (alas both of those were lost to the same squirrel who ate all the peas) as well as a plethora of other non legumes (onion weed ( Asphodeles tenuifolius is quite common, along with some sort of Anagallis (pimpernel) and a couple of small spurges and mallows. Oddly the indian stuff is remarkably grass seed free, you find the odd wheat, barley rice and oat (both domestic and wild) grain and that's it) Morrocan coriander has its own weedy profile mostly bindweeds,corn cockles and spiny members of the amaranth family. Thai coriander has its own as well, but it's usally best to avoid Thai coriander seed (for varios reasons). and of course there are hundreds of species that show up from time to time.
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Post by Rebsie on May 2, 2010 18:05:32 GMT -5
Thank you for sharing your knowledge and experience on this, it's really helpful - and fascinating.
It's really useful to know that those genes are separate but tightly linked. I'm wondering if the genes for purple pods are also crammed in on that same chromosome, because all three traits seem to go together. Or at least, I never seem to get purple podded peas which don't have the purple flowers and dark seeds - though it is perfectly possible to get green pods with purple flowers and dark seeds.
As I live in the UK it's doubtful that a lot of the extraneous seeds imported from warmer climes would be able to grow successfully here. But there's nothing to lose by experimenting. Indian food is very popular here so there is a lot of scope for finding odd seeds among the various imported pulses. I've often seen oddities and not known what they were. Thanks for sharing all these suggestions for what to look out for.
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Post by ottawagardener on May 2, 2010 19:08:05 GMT -5
Funnily enough, I"ve often thought of sorting through packages of lentils etc... to get out the odd coloured/shaped ones but more to grow different lentils than to look for interlopers of a different plant. I'm also very inspired by this.
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Post by blueadzuki on May 2, 2010 20:07:44 GMT -5
As I live in the UK it's doubtful that a lot of the extraneous seeds imported from warmer climes would be able to grow successfully here. But there's nothing to lose by experimenting. Indian food is very popular here so there is a lot of scope for finding odd seeds among the various imported pulses. I've often seen oddities and not known what they were. Thanks for sharing all these suggestions for what to look out for. Heck, I live in the Hudson valley, you climate is more friendly to these things than mine is (you may not get as hot as us but you also don't get as cold . Actually you problem might be in the reverse; things that the cold keeps under control where I am migh in you clime get out of control. If you do find anything, feel free to PM me, I know most of the seeds by sight and can probably tell you if something is worth the growing (in terms of having nice flowers etc.) I don't know what brands are sold in you neck of the world, but I had the best results with the Jaipur brand. ottawagardener I do that as well, that's how I got my tecnicolor adzuki beans (white, green,red with mottling,tan with mottling salt and pepper, black, blue etc); one seed at a time. Ditto my mossy chickpeas (tan skins with strong black mottiling). Actually it gotten to the point where I check the bags before I buy to make sure they contain an odd seed or two. And when something goes wrong (like last Wendsday When I realized that I had accidentally left a bag or rice beans that contained a wild soybean behind in the stack at the store) I actually got depressed (In my defense, wild soybean seeds are really really rare; that was only the second one I have seen this year and I look at about 20-30 bags a week (not buy but look at before buying).
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Post by cortona on May 9, 2010 8:19:10 GMT -5
sorry for the little ot blueadzuki can, for the next year, we have a seeds excange or wathever? i'm starting to interest myself in unusual(for my neck of the world the old Italy) legumes and you i think have something i have never tasted and tested plus a large experience on growing it! thanks in advance and for sharing your experience here Emanuele
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Post by keen101 (Biolumo / Andrew B.) on May 15, 2011 13:09:44 GMT -5
I'd like to create some visual punnit squares for the red-podded pea, but i need to know if the Purple coloring is dominant over green, or whether it is recessive. I know that the green is dominant over yellow. I think Rebsie said that the F1 generation was actually mostly green, but were the rest purple? I'm assuming at this point that the Purple is indeed dominant over green, and the reason most of the F1 generation was green was because the purple podded mother plant was actually heterozygous for the purple gene. This becomes rather confusing if you forget that the green/yellow podded genetics are completely separate from the purple coloring on top. Okay, here is my attempt at a F1 generation hypothesis. Please let me know if i set them up wrong. Big letter "G" represents dominant green pod, small letter "y" represents recessive yellow pod, and "P" represent dominant purple color and "p" represents purple color absent. Predicted to be 100% purple. or Predicted to be 50% green, 50% purple.
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Post by keen101 (Biolumo / Andrew B.) on May 15, 2011 14:07:14 GMT -5
Here is my attempt at a F2 generation Hypothesis of independent assortment. Again, please let me know if this is incorrect. with a Phenotypic ratio of 9:3:3:1 p.s. If anyone is interested in the other pea traits studied by mendel, then here is a great visual table showing seven crosses he performed. gathabiotens.files.wordpress.com/2010/08/c7_14_1_traits1.jpg
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Post by Joseph Lofthouse on May 15, 2011 17:25:03 GMT -5
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