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Post by Jim on Feb 13, 2009 16:31:01 GMT -5
I'm not a biologist so forgive me please. Are all Lycopersicon species able to interbreed? I'm just learning about plants but I know typically interspecies mammal hybreds are typically sterile. Is it just common in the plant kingdom to interbreed?
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Post by alkapuler on Feb 13, 2009 17:01:47 GMT -5
-googling your question gave info that many of the Lycopersicon species interbreed, at least pimpinellifolium (currant tomato), neorickii, chmielewskii, habrochaites and pennellii do cross with esculentum
-i tried crosses using hirsutum in crosses with esculentum with no success
-in classic biology, species are defined by their ability to interbreed ie crosses between members of different species are sterile or poorly fertile
-interspecies crosses in plants are somewhat common, and in some groups of plants like orchids there are complicated crosses involving 5 or more genera
-there is a related issue of those plants that have male and female plants rather than male and female flowers on the same plants or in the same flower
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Post by Jim on Feb 13, 2009 17:43:55 GMT -5
Thanks for the info. I should have googled before posting.
Your work is inspiring, thanks for contributing here as well.
Jim
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Post by atimberline on Feb 14, 2009 0:52:41 GMT -5
crosses using hirsutum in crosses with esculentum ...
I have had success with that and some other difficult ones... just remember that it's like marriage, you can't just stick 2 together just because they're human and have it work... it is a matter of finding the right individuals (generally trial and error), chemisry, light, heat, genetic desperation... you can do a lot to move the odds to favor the cross... it may take more than a little study and determination.
...the hirsutum I was working with had a unique chemisry that I wanted to move into the average tomato, it could regenerate from root tissue (but had a nasty flavor I was trying to escape)... It was/is possible to create a perennial tomato... one that can come back from root in a cold climate. ...I had thousands of F2's, 3's, in that one project when it got terminated. ...
just remember this, just because someone else failed at something or finds it impossible does not mean that it is impossible, only that then and there for them personally yes it was impossible... not for you now, examine what they did, ...its like love... its like war... get aquainted, don't give up easy on the hope.
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Post by ottawagardener on Feb 14, 2009 9:48:10 GMT -5
Tim I would sit glued to the screen to read any and all work you have regarding a perennial cold climate tomato, even if I needed to keep it in a passively heated greenhouse. I remember fancifully thinking of this when I read about cold resistant perennial solanums like some ground cherries.
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Post by bunkie on Feb 15, 2009 12:43:17 GMT -5
.................the hirsutum I was working with had a unique chemisry that I wanted to move into the average tomato, it could regenerate from root tissue (but had a nasty flavor I was trying to escape)... It was/is possible to create a perennial tomato... one that can come back from root in a cold climate. ...I had thousands of F2's, 3's, in that one project when it got terminated. .... tim, are there any papers, articles about the perennial tomato attempt, varieties used etc...? i think it would be fun to work on this. thanks for starting this thread jim. i'm a bit new to all this myself. |
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Post by ceara on Feb 15, 2009 15:25:17 GMT -5
I half wonder if embryo rescue would be an option in the cases where certain types don't normally cross. Like with certain Lilium, they use embryo rescue and then put into agar tubes and grow them out that way.
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mostlypurple
grub
SE Michigan, Kitchen garden, Z 5b-6a
Posts: 86
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Post by mostlypurple on Feb 15, 2009 21:34:10 GMT -5
Tradewinds Fruit is offering a L. Hirsutum x L. Esculentum cross for $2 a pack. They also have straight strains of L. cheesmanii, L. Humboldtii, L. Glandulosum, L. Melanocarpa, and L. Pyriforme. www.tradewindsfruit.com/tomato_seeds.htm and scroll down to "L" (for the ones named lycopersicon). |
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Post by alkapuler on Feb 15, 2009 21:46:55 GMT -5
-good to hear of successful crosses with hirsutum
-the flowers are beautiful, the foliage and stems fuzzy, and it lived unattended for 5 years growing up from the floor of our greenhouse
-agree that genetics takes perseverance and many good ideas get us to the door
-online is info that somatic cell fusion in solanums can be used to overcome barriers to interspecies crosses
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mostlypurple
grub
SE Michigan, Kitchen garden, Z 5b-6a
Posts: 86
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Post by mostlypurple on Feb 15, 2009 22:55:39 GMT -5
Somatic cell fusion? Sounds too GMO.
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Post by atimberline on Feb 16, 2009 11:32:01 GMT -5
I'm not a biologist so forgive me please. Are all Lycopersicon species able to interbreed? I'm just learning about plants but I know typically interspecies mammal hybreds are typically sterile. Is it just common in the plant kingdom to interbreed? Taxonomists are often not plant breeders. ...A label from such folk is no final statement as to the real relationship of species. Inter-species may or may not be fertile... sometimes that has to do with whether they gametically came together in essentially an unreduced state, or the far more common reduced state (half a set of chromosomes). When plants sexually couple in the unreduced state you end up with something like rutabaga's, siberian and winter red kales, triticales, ...those sort of new intermediate species that once they come into being make genetic movement from one parent specie to another much more common and rapid... I don't have time to go into detail... but typically, yes, true inter-specie crosses are often sterile or near sterile in the first generation... but fertility often rises quickly in following generations as the genes find and settle into new complementary relationships ...again I don't have time to go into all the detail of how this often occurs. You will often find natural intermediates of species where they suffer more isolation of individuals and close proximity to a close specie. ...another way genetic crossover can occur is thru pests ingesting genetic materials from one specie and inadvertently injecting it into another...aphids are a classic for plants, mosquitos for us blooded creatures... viruses, bacterias, fungi, and other items of genetic makeup often ride these and become the actual agents of genetic transfer... look close at nature and over time you will notice how this is happening. ...it is not the normal average occurence, but it is happening all the time... ...When I make a cross, I never do an embryo rescue... I figure if it can't happen under relatively natural conditions it is best to let it be... that does not mean that i don't critique the situation and try again, I often do,... interbreeding is far more common in plants than in animals, mostly due to the fact they are more dependent on inseminators (bees, other bugs, birds, wind,...) ...choice has a big influence on what happens and plants are low on choice. |
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Post by atimberline on Feb 16, 2009 11:49:21 GMT -5
Tim I would sit glued to the screen to read any and all work you have regarding a perennial cold climate tomato, even if I needed to keep it in a passively heated greenhouse. I remember fancifully thinking of this when I read about cold resistant perennial solanums like some ground cherries. Hi T. ...if you (or any of the rest of you out there) chance on some wild perennial ground cherries, peppers, or other nightshades that can make it thru a cold winter by regeneration from the root, PLEASE get some seed from the plants... I will be happy to pay you something for it, but if you donate it, I will be happy to send you later any breeding achievement it was used to develope. Tim Peters |
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Post by atimberline on Feb 16, 2009 13:11:51 GMT -5
tim, are there any papers, articles about the perennial tomato attempt, varieties used etc...? i think it would be fun to work on this. thanks for starting this thread jim. i'm a bit new to all this myself. ...bunkie, I don't know... I had notes, ...but papers are for people like my mother and brother who can type over 100 words a minute ...not like a poke like me... a long time ago I had to decide whether i would write and note down everything or just the critical path notes, ...and focus on the actuall accomplishing of a matter. ...Writing is critical for those whose income is coming from a grant, a school, a corporation... for me it has always been almost entirely my own pocket ...with thanks to supporting members for their past support of $5 or $20 included with their orders of unique materials (that was only a few hundred to a couple of thousand annually, and the cost for what I did ran more like 10-20 thousand annually)... ...I don't know of any papers or attempts that detail work to develope a perennial tomato... Lets think about this, I mean, you are in the seed business, you sell tomato seed and make some healthy money every year off of it... and YOU are stupid enough to destroy your business by developing perennial tomatoes...? the industry will never do it until the state owns us, it is nearly that simple... and likely even then it will never occur because it allows for a degree of independance they won't view as desirable. ....once they can track every bug that walks the earth they won't care, but for now they do care, and they don't want it, not really. ...they hide the reality behind disease and pest control (crap) talk. ...there are a lot of poor brainwashed fools (and worse) out there who are hell bent on 'saving' us from ourselves, ...and they find me, just like a flower draws bees and flies. ...be different and you will discover realities you never knew existed.... anyhow... it would not surprise me if there are some papers out there somewhere on the possibility of perennial tomates... but I don't know of any. |
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Post by paquebot on Feb 16, 2009 13:27:46 GMT -5
All indeterminate types of tomatoes are perennial. They will continue growing until something kills them. They do not die on their own accord.
Martin
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Post by atimberline on Feb 16, 2009 13:52:40 GMT -5
All indeterminate types of tomatoes are perennial. They will continue growing until something kills them. They do not die on their own accord. Martin we aren't talking about that kind of perenniality. |
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