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Post by Alan on Mar 17, 2009 20:45:44 GMT -5
In my never ending search for self sufficient survivalist and market farming seeds I have been researching heavily SE and SH2 corn breeding. SE and SH2 were both derived at seperate times (SH2 in the 50's, SE in the 70's) from inbred (IE. Open Pollinated Lines) of sweet corns. For home gardeners this is of little or no consequence, to a market farmer an OP SE or SH2 (particularly north of the Ohio where sweetness is equated with "godliness" apparently) would be a godsend and an excellent moneymaker and saver. What does this information tell us? We have been lead to believe that all SH2 and SE varieties are hybrids! Wrong. It's just that nearly all SH2 and SE inbreds are proprietary and patented lines. There have in the past existed in the public domain both SE and SH2 varieties (once again I do not like supersweet corn, but at market it would be an amazing asset!) For example, "northern sugar corn" is an OP SH2 that for the love of me I don't believe exists outside of private plant breeding collections. Red Evergreen is one of the sources of SE. Apparently it is now extinct! However there are many new breeding programs aimed at producing OP SE and SH2 corns. J. Spero who Dr. Kapuler said I should contact is working on some new crosses, he is sending those in the mail for trial and trade with Astronomy Domine (another possible source of a future SE, OP) And then while searching for other OP's I came across the work of Jim Brewbaker of the University of Hawaii who has bred an OP tropical SH2 called Hawaiian supersweet number 9. I doubt it would grow here due to day length but pretty cool none the less. As I continued to research I learned that he has also developed another SH2 OP with purple kernal coloration. Here is a link: archives.starbulletin.com/1996/09/27/business/story2.html
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Post by pugs on Mar 17, 2009 22:35:15 GMT -5
Very interesting article Alan.
Keep us posted with what you find. Oh, the Hawaiian Supersweet #9 is in the SSE Yearbook. There is also a Simonet listed, 36 - 40" tall, 60/65 days, 2 years and the seeds showed EXCEPTIONAL resistance to rotting in cold, wet conditions. There is also Double Red listed. There is a Puget Gold, but no discription, just that it is from the CV Puget.
Pugs
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Post by Alan on Mar 23, 2009 19:25:26 GMT -5
Doing some more research now.
Have managed to track down several SE and SH2 inbreds (read open pollinated) though I have yet to order. Will keep everyone updated.
I recieved the seed from J. Spero and the Sparkler f1 and festival SU are beautiful.
Thanks to pugs I've got a bit of Blood Brothers to make selections from. Apparently it is a cross between Mandan Red and Black Aztec, definitely some sweet genetics floating around in there requiring a bit of selection.
In a few days I'll be releasing some papers regarding Hip-Gnosis 2009 Seed Selection and Criteria ("Hybrid Heirlooms" and "Priori Proof", thanks for the inspiration Tom Wagner and Alan Kapuler). This paper will outline the future of Hip-Gnosis seed development and our breeding projects and their future distribution.
Hopefully Johnathan Spero will be posting here as he has time and Tom, Alan, and Tim will continue to visit.
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Post by canadamike on Mar 23, 2009 22:45:57 GMT -5
Funny Alan, I am ordering some other corn tonight, and we are talking inbred lines, but in the flint category. But there is anoter one that interest me:
Pi186214: White Flint
INC AMES COMP EARLENGTH 25.0 MAX-EAR-LENGTH INC AMES COMP EARLENGTH 15.0 MIN-EAR-LENGTH INC AMES COMP EARNUMBER 5.0 MAX-EAR-COUNT INC AMES COMP EARNUMBER 2.0 MIN-EAR-COUNT INC AMES COMP HUSKLENGTH 5.0 MAX-HUSK-LENGTH INC AMES COMP HUSKLENGTH 1.0 MIN-HUSK-LENGTH INC AMES COMP KERNELTYPE flint INC AMES COMP KERNELTYPE dent INC AMES COMP KRNLCOLOR white INC AMES COMP KRNLROWNUM 14.0 MAX-ROW-NUMBER INC AMES COMP KRNLROWNUM 12.0 MIN-ROW-NUMBER INC AMES COMP NODENUMBER 15.0 INC AMES COMP RTLODGING few stalks broken/lodged INC AMES COMP TILLERNUM 1.0 MAX-TILLER-COUNT INC AMES COMP TILLERNUM 0.0 MIN-TILLER-COUNT INC AMES COMP Phenological descriptors DAYSTOSILK 67
That one might be interesting to cross ....
I'd like to point out that of the F2 of early corn you sent me, I could save one ear that was not eaten by the racoons, and the seeds are much bigger than the F-2.
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Post by canadamike on Apr 3, 2009 2:28:02 GMT -5
I have just received 21 accessionsof corn from Grin, I will augment them this summer on the farm...and a couple of other farms. Included are very high protein and oil lines. One of them, from Polan, SU WOLICE is probably a sweet, the kernels are very shrunken, but it contains over 17% oil. It looks like a sick very greasy kernel. Another line, ILLINOIS HIGH OIL, the result of 62 generations of selection, has even more but looks like an ordinary white dent. I intend to cross them with many high anthocyanin lines and multi-ears lines later, in an effort to create corns for my dairy farmer friend, stuck with Monsanto shitty stuff. As the super high cost of fertilizers and all the ...cides go up, it is more than time to present him with an alternative, and he is very open. It was also time 25 years ago when I started gardening , mind you . I just mean there are more ears ready to listen now. And as the Farm Credit Corporation ( gvt's agricultural ''bank'' ) does everything it can to discourage small dairy farms, oing organic is the solution. Tadam! You're organic and suddenly yuou can more easily be financed... I have nothing aainst that, mind you, it will last until they decide to have industrial ''organic'' farms The work might already be done in more than one way as these corn have more than past the test of time, but it is important to do some research on nutritional productivity in our own local organic environment. As the old folks say: corn likes to stay close to home, meaning it is a very regional crop in a way, corn from elsewhere will probably need a few years to adapt and maximize its potential in my locality. Many old ogranic farmers say it does not like to travel more than 60 miles, or else you have to adapt it again. I'll take for granted the wiseness of these wise guys, it cannot hurt anyway... I have taken pictures of most of the corns and will post them when I have the time. For our friends in Syria, I also have selected a few lines, one of a tropical sweet, HAWAIIAN SUGAR. Quite sexy very shrunken yellow kernels for very hot climates, and a few flint/flour corns, and also one developed for tolerance of saline environments for Palestine. It is late, enough writing in english for me today, Asta la victoria siempre my friends....
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Post by macmex on Apr 3, 2009 6:12:26 GMT -5
Mike, I can relate to not wanting to do something in a second language when tired. Normally I use a word processor with all commands, etc. in Spanish. It is, in fact, easier for me, than the English, but only because of long usage. Recently I decided to try Open Office software, which requires learning some new commands and keystrokes. I finally gave up on doing it in Spanish, simply because there was a more effort involved in formulating questions, as I searched for details.
Regarding corn liking to stay near home, I once had a conversation with Carl Barnes and he mentioned that many native corns will express interesting characteristics when moved away from "home." His term was "the corn remembers." In other words, some of these corns were once grown elsewhere. They adapted to their new "permanent" home and then, even hundreds of years later, when moved back (or close to "back") the genes revert to what they did in the other environment. This apparently works in some situations. But having traveled around and grown stuff way out of place, I've seen that there are limits.
I maintain two corns: Mesquakie Indian (dent, but a hard dent) from Iowa and Cherokee Squaw, a corn brought to Oklahoma by the Cherokee. The Mesquakie is originally from the North. But it does quite well here. I sent some seed to a Seed Savers Exchange member, somewhere in New England (I can't remember offhand where) and he reported that it produced "huge ears." That was interesting to me because here it produces rather small ears. I've never heard of it produce really large ears, from anyone else.
George
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Post by canadamike on Apr 3, 2009 7:44:59 GMT -5
I would add I have heard that ''corn remembers'' too, in a different format: '' likes to come back home''. I guess people meant the same thing . Samre with the different expression of genes. I would much appreciate to have some seeds of the Meskakie, enough to create a valuable population ( 500 or so). I would gladly send you back the corn in the fall in much larger quantities, along with the same for all the others I'll have grown, the offer is good for everybody here...with any corn I'll have grown...
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Post by bunkie on Apr 3, 2009 9:08:00 GMT -5
i was remembering that rebsie said that the more wrinkled a pea seed is, the more the sugar content in it. does this go for corn also?
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Post by Alan on Apr 3, 2009 10:29:34 GMT -5
Yep, well for the most part anyhow. Differentiating an SE from an SU1 is difficult visually unless you know what to look for but SH2 kernels look very much more "shrunken", hence the SH designation.
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Post by canadamike on Apr 5, 2009 2:55:25 GMT -5
Alan, the ShQ gene is by far more interesting that the SH2. It might very well be too sweet for lots of people, tasting way better than SH2, probably far too much for southern taste. Even me, no shy in the sweet tooth department, would not spend the summer eating it. Mind you, I can't spend 2 minutes eating SH2 It is nevertheless a quite welcomed treat. But this extremely tender corn, as opposed to the nuclear proof pericarped SH2, could probably lend itself to new uses by those not liking too much sugar. First of all, it is delicious raw. that's how the breeder discovered it: in a friend's pick your own field where he had planted his creations, they noticed people were eating corn right there . It needs 2-3 minutes of cooking max if you don't want it raw. Second, it could be something else than a ''vegetable''. I will try to mix it with various berrries to make jams this fall, and probably all sorts of other things like muffins and even cakes, sweet breads etc.. I honestly think it has a place in the dessert department It can't be machine harvested, so it is a no no for the '' industrial '' corn market, which is very cool to me. We have a little F-2, thanks to biorag in France, who loves it dearly, and the man knows good food... So this fall will should be at F-3. Darn, the kernels are so shrunken it is hard to believe there is life in them...
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Post by pugs on Apr 7, 2009 19:53:28 GMT -5
Michel,
I've never heard of the ShQ gene. Got any links about it handy?
Pugs
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Post by canadamike on Apr 7, 2009 21:04:35 GMT -5
There is now the seQ too... shQ: according to www.usask.ca/agriculture/plantsci/vegetable/definition.htmaugmented supersweet corn (shq) In this newly developed type of corn, every kernel has the sh2 gene resulting in a high sugar content and slow conversion of these sugars to starch. However, some of the kernels also have traits from se and su types - like tender moist kernels and superior flavor. The augmented supersweet types must be isolated from su and se types of sweet corn. Roughly explained, it has all the 3 genes together. It is not a gene per say but a unique gene package. I don't know where to find info on seQ
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Post by pugs on Apr 7, 2009 23:38:22 GMT -5
Thanks Michel.
I've heard of the corn, not that it was called ShQ. I don't know how one would breed their own OP version of it, or bring it into a new OP corn.
Pugs
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Post by canadamike on Apr 8, 2009 0:52:34 GMT -5
Believe me, the F-2 are freakishly shrunken... I can send you some seeds if you want...
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Post by Alan on Apr 8, 2009 11:13:10 GMT -5
You won't be able to dehybridize SHQ because it's a phenotype not a genotype. The best you can hope for is selection of SE characteristics or SU or some combination of the two, The SH2 x Se or SU will give you something along the lines of flint corn. They are interesting, and great for market, but not particularly usefull towards creating an OP derrivitave of such.
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