Perennial Edibles

[silverseeds]

I am very interested in perennial edible plants. The weedier the better, but even ones needing care I would love to know.

So I thought I would start a thread on it. Does anyone know a good website I can find seeds or information?

Im starting a perrennial and self seeding annual bed for greens. So far I have seed for a few cress's, dandelions, purslane, arugula, red maids, mizuna, clovers, plantain and a few others I forget the names of, I am still waiting on them in the mail. I will post the names of the rest later.

Im going to start propagating some prickly pear cactus's Ive saved the seed to. I have enough to share with one or two people, these strain is clearly winter hardy since its growing here. fruits are small and seedy, but tasty none the less. The seeds are healthy actually they dont taste bad, just no flavor. I didnt yet try the pads, which are edible.

Can anyone think of nut tree I could try here? I have seed for beech nuts, and I think pecans, and I have pinons already, and am going to gather some acorns once they are on some local trees, if I can get them before the animals do. I tried to dig one up, but the roots went very deep for such a small tree, and were under rocks and things, I killed it in the attempt.

[plantsnobin]

Maybe the best thing for you to do would be to go to your library and check out books on plants native to your area, as a starting point. Then use the pfaf.org database to cross check edible or other uses of the plants in your area. I am not a native plant purist by any means, but until you get more experience it can't hurt to grow what you know will do well where you live. Since we don't seem to have any members with your kind of climate it is hard to make suggestions as to the specific plants you could grow. You say you have beech & pecan seeds, I guess it wouldn't hurt to try them if you won't be out any money. I would think that they would need more water than what you have. You need to take into consideration how much rain you have and when you have it. Work with nature instead of trying to impose what you want on your land. Let us know more about your rainfall, first and last frost, high and low temps. There is a mail order nursery around Santa Fe called High Country Gardens, more ornamental type plants, but there might be something useful. I would think you could grow sage, lavender, thyme and many other herbs pretty easily. Many herbs hate high humidity so should do well.

[ottawagardener]

Plants for a Future as Karen said, is a great website though you do have to confirm everything you read on it.

I would look up traditionally used, native plants in your area, and there must be some permaculture blogs that are nearby you.

I have the same interests but a very different climate!

[silverseeds]

Thanks for the reference. I know all the perennials used here, save for a few herbs the tribes dont tell people about. I didnt bother listing them because they are of little value to anyone else but me, that visits this site anyway. I also listed them in another section here, about seeds for school.

I was also hoping someone from another coutnry might know something, that would do well here outright or other greens that I could baby a little.

As for the nut trees, I know I will have to water them, and that is fine.

And why shouldnt I try to force plants to my conditions? You do know most everyhing you eat is not from where your growing it now?

As for rainfal, its pretty sparse. That isnt the point or relavant to my question. I will have to water most of these in my greens patch. That is just how it is.

[plantsnobin]

Oh, I thought you wanted to be in balance with your surroundings. By all means grow a lush rainforest that you will have to irrigate. No point in working with nature in your little eco system.

[silverseeds]

LOL well I am doing both really. Your telling me you dont irrigate your garden? Where you live you could get by without it. Maybe you should look at the seed in school thread. I am in fac already planning and have a few established already, BY FAR the most diverse permaculture this particular area had in known history. Im not joking or lieing at all. The quarai people did pretty well, but I will have atleast double the numbers of plants they had. Or atleast were known to have that is. For the most part other tribes would simply collect these things in the wild.

As for the trees, in all reality, they will likely grow here marginally. pecans I believe eventually have deep enough roots even in arizona which is much much drier then here.

Maybe you should look for a post I made in some section for newbies. Im not even going to use well water or city water ultimately. Im going to use pa patch of clay orcocrete to direct water into a storage area. Less then half of the water here reaches the water table. So as I use this water in directed ways, such as gardening, with the use of mulching I will in fact be bolstering the water table. With 60-80 percent of the watr likely reaching the watr table. DEFINITELY not less in the very least.

Do you know what it could take to shift the jetstream? No I knew you didn because the scientists do not seem to either. It shifted a couple years ago for awhile, noone knew why. The pacific northwest could literally end up with desert levels of rain, and this area have the winds bring water they would have gotten. With new lakes and rivers forming everywhere. Im not saying it is likely but possible. I have following "intuition" my whole life andi tells me this area will be different someday. Yours as well. I in fact would tell each of you to contemplate starting your own tasty perennial salad mix. And also trying to grow things not for your area.

heres apple trees, and a few peach trees, I have seen here. None produced heavily but they did produce. I have the idea, of pruning them into bushes, and giving them a few gallons a week, with my shade tolerant, perennials, and self seeding annuals under them. In fact if I have plants under the trees, the rotts will direct more water into the soil then leaving it bare. Even with the help of mulching have this type of plant fo me will help direct the wate deeper.

As far as back yard gardns can go for me I don think you can get to much more efficient then my total plans, fully enacted. Unless I only eat the mush the tribes here ate most of the time. which was pinon nuts ground up in water, with whatever random weeds or hrbs not for flavor likely since it varied day to day, but just to live. Starvation was common except among the quarai, (an hopi but they were farther away in harsher conditions, more adapted I guess) the quarai did use permaculture, but they also ate alot of mush, except they ALWAYS had dried berries to add, and atleast grass seed and pinon for a base.

Now in good years there was no starvation, people had much more choice, corn and beans and squashes, rumors of watermelons although archeologists say thats a joke. But it might be true who knows they where in fact here when the spanish showed up. If there was a ancient route who says the one single handful of watermelon seed didnt make it here somhow in a trade. People assume since the spanish had already beeen in mexico for a couple decades that even though they arent known to have brought it here that someone on a spanish ship traded it to a native, who traded it up the line until it was here. Im pretty sure I have these seeds by the way. Well I do have seeds, just not positive it traces itself back to those however they got here. So in good years everyone had lots of food. The idea here was plant a garden 3 years hope for results ONE year. although there were periods where they worked nearly every year. Usually the biggest starvation periods directly followed that because people got used to the high life. Some of these weedier annuals and perrenial greens will naturalize here anyway like dandelions did. Im sure of it. They go dormant when needed and grow when they can. I wont get the harvest you do, but I will get something, I wont know which ones till I try them all. Im real hopeful of plantain, its a vitamin powerhouse, and super weedy. purslane is a veggie source of omega threes. Some cress will grow in the warm parts of winter, which is a time of usual mousture, and almost always in the day that is warmer then you might imagine since its always so sunny here. snow gone by 2 in th afternoon almost every time, except occationally a week or two of being extra cold in the day as well. It can be harvested in as little as 15 days. Even dried, most likely, although would not taste to good, but if needed would be a storage of nutrition.

So theres a few factors that caused crop failure here. obviously water was number one. Also since we are at such a high elevation LATE frosts and EARLY ones are common. Not every year at all. Maybe every second to fifth year. With the general consensus to expect it every third. So from my view I want my summer gardens down to 60 days. With cool tolerant varieties. Im planning wide crosses of nearly every veggie, that I think would be decent here and I am going to select out what I like, a couple various directions. Like single out the coolest tolerant beans, even if they dont produce so well. If for nothing else to cross back with other things later. Pick out the ones which produce heavily with the least irrigation and so on. You might be dumbfounded if you saw my garden right now. I abuse it. I do take extra care to make it work for itself with heavy mulching elimination of every weed and so on. But I want it to fend for itself as much as possible. When I get all the right materials to do so, it will be more efficient. I can also abndon anything at any time. Im not trying to make a rain forrest. I just want to direct what I do get to mak it as tasty and healthy as possible. and sustainable. Basically EXACTLY what our savy native american friends before me here did and do. Im just going to attempt to broaden it, with things no more outrageous then the fact they greww a long mid season ancient corns here for the most part. It is amazing they pulled it off as well as they did. But having access to wider germplasm poll I can find five times as many things then what is here, and essentially we will be five times more secure, with a tastier set of foodstuffs.

The zuni tribe had peaches, pretty big orchards. They were a type known to be cool tolerant and breed true from the pits, which is why the spanish carried the seed here to begin with. They died in a extr cold winter in the 50s I think. But what amazes me is some peaches can produce from seed in three short years. Some are hardy to zone 3, which is alot colder then here so even that extreme winter would be okay most likely. It did turn out some researchers found decades later the trees of the zuni were alive, strangely enough even after decades, and they cut them back, and they became peach bushes. Instead of trees. So apples and pears dont breed true to seed, but can survive as harsh of places as peaches I think. So I should be able to grow all of them. I wont get great harvest, likely not even a harvest each year, but I still think it is a great idea. Im going to try anyway. Theres little pockets of very free thinkers around here. Once I perfect this and as I do I will be sharing seed with them. For free. Many of these people fight against it trying to grow like the live in a warm area. So they end up with very small gardens, and buy from local co-ops. It can be done with much less water, then people think.
theres many layers to my garden plans, wheels within wheels. Some years a wheel will get a flat, but the way this ride works we can go without a few wheels, and still get a healthy sustainable diet. Kusa has some grains which by description might just produce here most every year without irrigation or very minimal. Im going to be ordering those soon. By the way anyone reading this want to go half on a Kusa order? It isnt to save money because the price doesnt go down with odering one of everything. But they seem to seel them in blocks. So I would be getting a bunch of things I dont want just to get a few in each group I do want. So if someone would like to talk that out pm me. I dont want nearly half of them so youd get more seeds, I just want the ones more specifically for this area. So any most of the section you could have more then half the types. A thought anyway.

[PatrickW]

I don't need to irrigate my garden. SS, you haven't been around long enough to have seen me mention this some months ago.

My garden is 1 meter below sea level -- my problem is keeping the water out! My garden floods at least once a year. The water table normally sits about 30cm below the surface, so plants with roots at least that long can get all the water they need.

The only time I need to water in my garden, is when I'm trying to get seeds to germinate in the top cm or so. My ground is very sandy, so getting seeds to germinate can be a challenge sometimes...

I'd love to trade some of your dryness.

[ottawagardener]

Sorry, didn't understand the gist of your post. I can tell you what I grow in my permaculture system but I'm not sure if it would be helpful.

Oh, yes I'd like to trade for Prairie dropseed. I"ll pm you.

[williethered]

Patrick if your soil is sandy try mixing compost into the top 5-6 inches every year and you won't have this problem any more.

[silverseeds]

patrick well part of my crops will not need watered either, but if I can store and collect some water as well, I can have much more diversity. The quarai showed you can in fact do it. And stay healthy but it would be a pretty boring diet.

[grungy]

SS, is it possible to get some of those peach pits?

[PatrickW]

Hi Willie, welcome to the forum.

I'm working on the compost! As soon as I make more, it just seems to disappear into the garden.

There' s also something in my garden, I think it' s the silt or maybe a little clay, that crusts in hot sunny weather. And I know, the solution for that is compost too...

[silverseeds]

Aug 20, 2009 18:19:17 GMT -5 grungy said:

SS, is it possible to get some of those peach pits?

Well I am going to try that for sure, if I can get some when exactly are peaches ripe, we were going to make a trip there and see if we could get some. Its actually 80 or 90 miles away but the same climate. They used to sell them by the tons, now though I never heard of it. But maybe I can get lucky. Im definitely going to try grungy, If I eve get some I will get extra for you.....

[silverseeds]

actually grungy, my wife was here when I made the last post, she was given some peach pits from a tree in bluewater, which is like zuni. She got 10, but has to grow five at the school. Im not positive they grow true to type from the pits, like the zuni ones are reported to do, but most peches do apparently. I will try to get you some, and find out more about them. My wifes aid, in her class got them from a neihbor. So I guess now is the time to check for zuni ones. although very possible these are decended from those, because alot of little groves sprung up during that period, bluewater was once literally considered the carrot capitol of america, irrigated with water in a manmade pond.

[grungy]

Thank you, SSeeds, Can we return the favor and send you some apricot and peach pits from our orchard? You can see how they will do for you and let us know?