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Post by stratcat on Sept 12, 2009 23:05:28 GMT -5
Hi, Jo.
I sent the seed for this season to a guy that has a small catalog that I purchased Stick tomato from back in 2007.
Cream City is a tasty, sweet pink tomato with regular leaves from Currie Bros. Seed Co. Milwaukee Wis. early 1900's. I read about this variety in an heirloom tomato newsletter back in 1995.
john
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Post by grunt on Sept 13, 2009 2:08:52 GMT -5
Actually Martin, anything they release from the USDA is being released because they have refreshed their seed, or because it is in demand enough that it is continuously maintained and evaluated at one of their Plant Introduction Stations. It's one of the reasons that things will come up in a rotational pattern there. What is available for distribution this year may not be next year. If they have it in their collection, but it isn't currently available, it likely will in the next few years, when they regrow for refreshing seed stocks or if requests mandate they maintain an active crop of it. Despite the fact that seeds can be saved frozen for very long periods, they continually renew seed stocks, some times based on time alone, and sometimes based on requests for particular fields of research. They do not allow their stock of any variety they have obtained to dissipate beyond recoverability, and do the insurance restocking before they release enough to get close to the danger point. I have obtained beans that were originally collected from North Holland, but are maintained and being evaluated at www.ars-grin.gov/cgi-bin/npgs/html/site.pl?W6. It is there that my seeds came from. There are some stocks that are being continually regrown due to demand for them. They are like us on steroids. They are making sure that the seeds do not disappear, by making them available to those who will use them for research and/or evaluation, and/or will use the seed stock obtained to farther disseminate the seeds. Like most of us, they know that the germ plasm has to be secured and maintained, and that the best way to do this is through wide dissemination of it. I agree that they are not, and should not be, suppliers of free seed for casual weekend gardeners. That phrase does not describe most of the people on this forum. We may all (with a few exceptions) be simply individuals who garden on a relatively small scale, but we do all (again with a few exceptions) try to spread the seed around and make it less likely that it can disappear. And most of us know just how irreplaceable the germ plasm is and what its loss can mean. We personally use the germ plasm at our disposal to evaluate the viability as a crop in our area, and do send back reports on some of the varieties that we have obtained from them. We may only be a couple of flatulent oldsters (doesn't sound right, but I wanted a more sophisticated way of saying "old farts") on a single acre of land, but we do give back information on what does and does not do well in our particular micro-climate (which we describe to them), and what the potentials are for commercial or market gardening usage, and local acceptance as a potential product. And we also disseminate the seed world wide. We personally trade/share seed in 23 countries, with people who trade in some countries we don't yet have contacts in. As usual, I have wandered away from the starting point, and started to babble, but I warned you all that I tend to do so when I first showed up here. The basic point I was trying to make was that they are not likely to run out of any germ plasm that they are willing to release. Yes, there initial stock comes almost entirely from donations, but the donors are usually not individuals, but corporate entities, educational/scientific institutions, or government departments or ministries. All of the germ plasm repositories, politics aside, are doing it for the same reasons, and are very open to exchanges of materials. And I'm about to wander off the point again, so I'm going to sign off here. Cheers Just wanted to add that most if not all accessions are maintained/backed up at at least two sites. I haven't seen a listing yet that didn't state "Accession backed up at second site." Cheers again Dan |
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Post by mnjrutherford on Sept 13, 2009 9:55:41 GMT -5
OH! ANOther thing I noticed about GRIN is WHAT they send. Not necessarily seeds. I'm thinking I'll learn about how to propagate various things based on what I'm sent. I've learned a little bit about rooting things this year. Val and Bunkie (I think?) told me about making a willow tea to facilitate the rooting process. I've used it on grapes, lavender, and (of all things) a pineapple top. Works a charm!
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Post by grungy on Sept 13, 2009 12:03:19 GMT -5
Great Jo, go for it.
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Post by plantsnobin on Sept 13, 2009 17:18:59 GMT -5
A note to all who may obtain cuttings from GRIN. Even though the label that comes with the cuttings looks like a nice permanent label, it isn't. The ink will wash off of some of them in just normal watering. Don't ask me how I know. We should always have a back up plan for the cuttings/seeds we plant, lest we end up with a tray full of 'unknowns'. I should have learned that lesson already, as old as I am, but sometimes I forget things.
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Post by mnjrutherford on Sept 13, 2009 17:33:38 GMT -5
I hear ya Karen! ONE sweet day, far into the future, I'd like to have bronze markers. Like a botanical garden? Anyway, till then we are "mapping". As yet, we don't have anything really worth knowing beyond "apple, peach, plum, apricot". Well, not WORTH knowing, more like we don't know more than that anyhow.
Do you have any pointers on this? I'm asking because I don't feel I have a best practice yet.
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Post by grungy on Sept 13, 2009 18:21:41 GMT -5
Pencil on cut Window blind slats
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Post by plantsnobin on Sept 13, 2009 18:31:49 GMT -5
Well, I am afraid that I haven't really come up with any absolute foolproof way. For most of the perennial garden I have used the zinc markers that are called the 'rose' labels. You can get them from PawPaw Everlasting. But I can't really say that I would recommend them. I have used them with China markers, the wax pencil things, and with plain pencil. Both wear off, or fade due to the sun. Last year when I planted I would write on the underside of the label as well as the right side hoping they would be ledgible longer. I try to note the date planted along with where I bought the plant, or seed source. Truthfully though, I am ready to pull all of my labels as I just don't like the look of the garden with all them sticking up. When I had retail customers stopping by I felt I should have everything labeled, but I am not going to worry about that anymore. People still ask you even if they are labeled anyway. There is the old 'mini-blind method of labeling too, but I don't think they would last any longer than the zinc ones. You can get the impressable aluminum labels that can be wired onto trees and shrubs, or you can use an aluminum drink can cut for the purpose. Just write on them with a ball point pen, pressing hard. I think ultimately, for looks, I will do without any lables, and try to make a decent map of where things are planted. Of course, I will probably forget where I put the map, but...
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Post by Alan on Sept 13, 2009 20:22:30 GMT -5
I think that most of us on this site can agree that we are pretty advanced compared to most other gardening forums on the web. Many of us are plant breeders, seed savers, or propigators and in some cases all of the above! I will give fair warning that GRIN does not always do a very good job of maintaining it's diversity, many accessions are outcrossed or extremely inbred, some to the point of being nearly useless.
In terms of tree crops and cuttings, many accessions are virus infected, those that are will be labled in the database, the key here is to pay very close attention, also many times scion wood will be of an unaceptable size for grafting, pay attention to the size they say they are sending and order rootstock to match.
A good source of valuable genetics, but not a true "seed" or "pure strain" repository. Work hard to return seeds and report back, we are currently in good standing with them as Hip-Gnosis Seed Development and Homegrown Goodness, and are somewhat recognized as a loose "organization" so to speak, also do not be afraid to contact the stations by phone or e-mail to ask questions and ocassionally sending a small gift of some type to the kind folks that help us out goes a long way too.
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Post by paquebot on Sept 13, 2009 21:32:04 GMT -5
I will give fair warning that GRIN does not always do a very good job of maintaining it's diversity, many accessions are outcrossed or extremely inbred, some to the point of being nearly useless. Excellent point and very true. GRIN doesn't maintain any program for fresh replacement seeds. Look at everything they have and most will tell you who supplied it and when. In theory, one should be able to return more seeds than obtained but that's when things go wrong. I believe that GRIN operated that way at one time. As a result, there has been a lot of crossed or mixed stuff distributed. Thus you take that chance each time you request something. Martin |
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Post by bunkie on Sept 14, 2009 8:39:46 GMT -5
......... I've learned a little bit about rooting things this year. Val and Bunkie (I think?) told me about making a willow tea to facilitate the rooting process. I've used it on grapes, lavender, and (of all things) a pineapple top. Works a charm! oh wow jo! i never thought of using it for the pineapple top!!! going to try it! |
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Post by mnjrutherford on Sept 14, 2009 9:31:46 GMT -5
Alan, what do you mean by "order root stock"? Is it possible that I've requested something I won't be able to use correctly?
As for the deficiencies with the germplasm from GRIN, gee, that sounds like a bit of a challenge! That definitely says that there is a need to be met and it's not a huge mountain to overcome, just a teaspoon of seed here or there. Speaking of which, I don't recall seeing any herbs anywhere. Did I miss something?
Yea Bunkie! It's pretty darn cool! I leave about an inch of "meat" from the base of the leaf cluster. Makes it easier to prep out the fruit that way as well. I happened to have a bit of space in a dirt bucket so I dipped the pineapple into the willow tea then buried it to the base of the leaves. At first the leaves were all brown at the tips and kinda sorry looking. But in no time flat there were teeny new leaves pushing up from the middle. Now there are more lovely green leaves than brown tipped leaves. It should continue to grow that way for a couple years, then start a fruit which will take another 3 to 4 years to develop and ripen. Once harvested, you should start a new plant. I learned that from the Dole plantation tour on Oahu. LOVE the pineapple ice cream they serve!
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Post by silverseeds on Sept 14, 2009 10:46:37 GMT -5
If these varieties are truly in this much pain even IN a repository such as this, I really do hope they share readily with avid growers like many here, so we can disseminate more of these. It is time we get serious about these seedbanks, theres a seedbank in russia to, with amazing germplasm, and they cant fund it, mayb a good project worth bridging the divide with america and russia?  ? |
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Post by mnjrutherford on Sept 14, 2009 19:13:29 GMT -5
I've recieved to responses to my requests thus far. Davis wanted a shipping account number to cover the shipping costs. I responded that I had no accounts but that I would be happy to make some other arraignment. The response was that not having a shipping account would not stop the shipment, but if I could make a $10 donation, it would be appreciated. Hey, no problem! I'm sending them $10 bucks. ALSO, I asked if there was an area of the website that addressed making donations.
The second response which was from NSSLAL?!?! (WHO the heck is THAT?) passed the sorrowful news that they would not be able to send me the Allium cepa accession I requested. That won't stop the other stuff I asked for right? Well, I don't know the answer to that yet, but I bet I will by this time tomorrow!
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Post by Alan on Sept 14, 2009 22:24:58 GMT -5
Howdy Jo,
In terms of rootstock I was talking about if you are ordering scion or budwood for making grafted trees. The scion wood they tend to send is pretty thin and if you ordered any wood like this you will need to notate the size so you can order the appropriate sized root stock to graft onto.
Also, even if they are out of one accession they should still send you a good portion of those things which you have requested.
Silver, I agree, any accessions of value need to be placed into the capable hands of responsible growers and I encorauge serious growers seed savers and breeders to request, but the simple fact that some of it is so inbred and disease prone as to be useless can't be overlooked here, some of this seed can be just a bit dangerous to even bring onto a farm in my opinion, be very careful when ordering and watch for notes of virus vectors, the truth is that the GRIN system isn't really a "seed bank" as much as it is a repository for genes as opposed to varieties so to speak.
There is a terrific seed bank in Russia, ordering is a pain though and thus far none of us have had any luck.
CIPOTATO
and Tomato Genetics Resources as well as Gatersleben are good resources to have on hand however.
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