Any body else breeding corn?

[raymondo]

Thanks for that blueadzuki. I may be able to use an architect friend's light table. After very strong winds last night, I should probably also select for short, stocky plants!

[Alan]

Mar 3, 2010 7:46:15 GMT -5 blueadzuki said:

About the only adive I can give you with regards to selecting good flour corn by looking at the kernels is as follows; most flint/flour corns have areas of hard starch and soft starch (in the case of "true" flour corns it's nearly all soft. for the best "flour" you want as much soft as is feasible (plus hard is diffciult to grind with home type grinding devices) hard starch in the kernel is transparent/translucent soft is opaque. except in cases where the corn kernels are very dark (red or deep purple) you caqn usally see this with the naked eye. For those that are dark the simplest method is to put the kernels on a light table (or if you dont have one, get a good flashlight (make sure, if its and LED flashligh that it has a window over the LEDs) you can stand up on its end with the light facing up to you. put the kernels you want to look at on top so that the light shines trough them pick out the ones that have the least light coming though, for a flint this usally looks like an all opaque kernel or at least one where the transparent areas are restricted to the very sides in two strips. Discard, however any where the light and dark areas do not look regular and symmetrical this usally means the kernel is damaged or diseased (you may also want to pass on any really dark purple, as this is often so dark that it will look completely opaque no matter what and you will never really know) this is you growiung stock. after a generation or two it should be all floury.

Thank you for that information and I'll definitely make good use out of it and plan to set up a light table as soon as I build a seed room.

I noticed today on Facebook that Johno had set himself up a really nice little seed room which has inspired me to do something similar.

[nuts]

Hi everyone,
Sorry I've not been so busy on posting for a few months.Been absorbed by my workshop and all the things going on in life.
Spring is in the air now,giving that strange feeling things have to be prepared.

I'm feeling a kind of newbie compared to you fellow cornbreeders.
My objectives as beginning cornbreeder are quite simple for my first year.
I'm so lucky Alan gave me enough seed of the astronomy domine to start a good population.
One of my first objective is to get as many plants growing as space will allow.(hoping to drawn the rubbish pollen coming from the fields around)
I didn't count the seeds yet, but I hope to have a few hundreds plants.
To avoid the recurrent losses in spring due to slugs and escargots I will sow in containers and plant at two or three leaves stage.another advantage is to have a faster start while the soil is still a bit too cold.(is this recommended?).
From this population I will select a hundred plants that have the best development,the most and biggest ears.This seems doable to me.Selecting for taste and so seems more difficult to me because to evaluate taste you have to eat the ears(sweet corn) before they are mature and that makes it difficult to evaluate production.I just don't understand how you can plant the seeds if you have eaten them
I have to mention too that I have preference for tall plants,because I want to let pumpkins run through the beds.
In this point my opinion is quite different than Michels.For better lightdistribution on the soil it's better to have tall plants and plant them thinner.But of course I can be wrong and if he wants I'll make selection of small plants for him.
Eventually I will make two populations.irrigated and 'dry'. and maybe I'll try some with beans climbing on them.
My questions are.
What do you specialists think of my strategie?
Is hundred plants enough to not loose too much genes in relation to taste and such properties?
At what density plants/square meter(1squate meter is about 10 square feet)do you usually plant?

My great concern is space.At the moment I have only 100 square meters of garden.And I want to do pumpkins,beans and tomatoes too.Oh I forgot to think about my fava beans
that are allready going on 15 square meters,and the garlic and the leek and unions

Well something happened last week.My 80 years old father went to see a friend at 800 km by car.He got too tired and forgot where to go.He drove til there was no more fuell in his car.Then went on walking through the woods in one of the most lost areas of france.He didn't eat or drink or sleep for about 3 days till he knocked on the door of someone who helped him out.

He's going well now,but we decided to buy the little house in face of mine that the owner is willing to sell, for my fatherThere is a small garden of about 300 square meters(And lots of water coming out of the ground just besides)
Kind of the cripple working together with the blind.
So I hope myprojects will devellop a lot this year.

cheers

[raymondo]

Selecting for taste and so seems more difficult to me because to evaluate taste you have to eat the ears(sweet corn) before they are mature and that makes it difficult to evaluate production.

Perhaps you will have to eat just part of the cob and leave the rest to mature. I think this was suggested by Joseph as an idea in his pursuit of Se corn.

Boy, your father was lucky to have found that farm house.

[cortona]

Dear Raymondo, i have almost the same breeding goal for corn, flour corn, for dry land. if you start with the mas cross i like to trial some of the resultant seeds if you like to share some with me!
thanks to all the breeders here that help to build mi know about corn!

[raymondo]

I'll be happy to share cortona. Of course, my seasons are opposite to yours. I plant corn in November. I attempted to grow some flour corn for a friend but it's been a disaster. The plants are only now developing cobs and frost is just around the corner. I just have to hope that next season is better.

[canadamike]

Guys, it looks to me that you forgot something: a lot of corns do produce tillers. Some quite naturally because they are closer to their natural/ indian roots, others could greatly benefit from rich soil and something like a foot or a foot and a half of spacing. Nothing like it to wake up the tilling production in corns. I am sure the gene is still in all the cultivars or almost, simply subdued, and close spacing help the monostem production. In Robert Kourik's fantastic book, ROOTS DEMYSTIFIED you can see that corn roots have a 5 feet diameter. So giving them space would help produce suckers. These are clones...

You can try the experience in reverse too. Take a multi stemmed corn like CHIRES BABY and plant it closely, you'll get one stem like I did.

With some corns, I have noted that only a few inches of difference can have an impact on sucker production.

[nuts]

Mike,I see

I have paths of a good meter broad(I need that for my wheelchair).
So there is quite a lot of light on the edges of the beds.
So,maybe it woold be a better strategie to plant at a good density and leave some space on the edges of the beds for the cucurbitacae.

I sure will try some different configurations.
Thanks for you remark.

[canadamike]

Here, the soil, clayish, is extremely rich. the commercial farmers often seed at 2 inches intervals. Of course they add fertilizer on top, but planting at 6-8 inches will give me tow ears per plant of Merlin sweet corn for exemple.

For breeding purposes, you could effectively make sure that the soil is rich then plant at 4 inches, 6 would be better to get bigger ears and fully evaluate them. But if you want clones of your best plants to do BOTH eating and making seed, I would put more distance between the plants, take suckers from the best ones, identify and grow. That is what Luther Burbank did. Of course you need a season long enoughfor that, and this is something you only can juge, it would be hard here but from an early corn pre-started inside like you will do.

Oups, just notice you are in southern France, the suckers will easily make it to seeds.

Shit, too bad I did not know you, I was in southern France for a week during the conference tour, and I had a car,I would have visited you

[cortona]

raymondo the opposite season can be of very very help! we can have two harvest in a year! ad that sped up every breeding program!

[nuts]

Mar 11, 2010 19:56:05 GMT -5 canadamike said:

Oups, just notice you are in southern France, the suckers will easily make it to seeds.

Shit, too bad I did not know you, I was in southern France for a week during the conference tour, and I had a car,I would have visited you

Well I'm at 500m elevation,so,not sure it will work,but I'll learn by trying.

Yes,too bad I didn't go to one of your meetings,but it was quite a long ride,and passing nights elsewhere is quite a hassle for me.
Next time we we'll meet.I drive a car and I'll pick you up where ever I can.

[canadamike]

From my experience ( I mean what I witnessed in October)in the Alps north of Forcalquier, much higner than 500 meters, it will not be a problem at all. You know, corn can take light frosts without any problems. It is harvested long after many frosts here. They are not long or cold enough to go through the husks. But sweet corn is a bugger when it comes to drying. Should it be very very cold for long, wich I think it is impossible in your area in October ( I saw a lot of people in shorts and tee shirts up to October 10).

If I may, your definition of ''cold'' is quite un-canadian ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

And by october 10, AD is dry enough to be picked and brought inside here. Especially since you can sow Astronomy Domine a whole full 2 months before me, do not worry at all. Really really not worry. You could almost have 2 full crops of it, or at least the earliest of the bunch.

If you really wantto do a lot of work on your small space, start them indoors 3 weeks before planting date in March, then do it again later to coordinate it with creamy stage or a little later. When you see the corn is getting creamy, you could start transplants inside and set them out outside 3 weeks later or 4, the corn will be ok to bring inside and finish off. If it stays a little too long in its containers or pots, it will simply dwarf the plants a bit but you will get very good ears of corn. I have done it a number of times and intent to test itmore seriously next year. I have done it twice with success, but it would be good to really test it with different lenghts of time in pots to see where it can go, what is a tolerable maximum time etc....

I just did the math and according to my experience I feel SURE you could do it. I talked with Alan carter, who grows 350 different kinds of seed for Kokopelli, the day he got his sweet corn in to finish it off. And it was about one month after my return on October 11.
When I was there, the corn, Art Verrel, was almost at the edible stage, just past it.

Given it is an early corn and I know Alan has a 12 months growing cycle and needs all his space, rest assured this corn was not put in the ground in March...he was finishing off his winter ( if you can call it like that close to Nice , sorry, I could not restrain myself ;D) season crops by then...

Where do you live in France?

[raymondo]

Cortona, sorry to disappoint you but corn cannot be imported into Australia except at great expense. I can export corn without a problem, but import, no. Same is true for all Poaceae in fact, as well as all Fabaceae.

Now, if you have a project involving cucumbers, melons, squash or peppers I can certainly help.

[cortona]

tomatoes? i have some seeds in f2 from an f1 of kilodellagarfagnanax or early spring f1 and in this generation i think i have a greath segregation, so if you want in next season we can have some mail.
Emanuele

[raymondo]

No, sorry Emanuele, it is not possible to import tomato seed into Australia. In the Solanaceae family, we can import Solanum melongena and most Capsicum species.