Long Island seed dwarf champion mix

[Alan]

Since this fall I will have two greenhouses up and going I was thinking about growing some of the Long Island Seed Dwarf Champion tomatoes in the new greenhouse to give them a trial. I know several of you have grown them in containers in the past and even though we are several months off from being fall I wanted to get some feedback on the performance of these tomatoes in containers so I can plan for them more thorougly, I think the colors will give me some more marketability and if they are consistent producers of quality I will definetly give them a go.

[canadamike]

Alan, I was discussing dwarfs onTville, Craig LeHoulier stepped in and recommended me NEW BIG DWARF, from Victory, telling me the taste was right up there with the best indeterminates, and that the production was better in a container than in the ground. Harvest should be 15-20 pounds per plant.

Since it is not the first time I hear that dwarfs are very well at home in container, I have a little theory, I would love to have feedback from all the friends on it:

Fruit taste and production is relative to photosynthesis and root mass
( roots and leaves being of course interdependent ).

Because there is less leaf coverage for the amount of fruit produced, the roots have to play an even more important role at maximising photosynthesis.

Given that the soil is lighter, hence easier to ''colonise'' for the roots, and fertiliser can't run off as much, staying more present for them, it only makes sense that container growing would render the plants more productive.

It is only my '' one centh worth '' as I think you say, but as they teached us in my college science courses, a theory does not have to be exact or true, it has to be practical.

Michel

[biorag]

canadamike said:

a theory does not have to be exact or true, it has to be practical.

Michel

I agree with you Michel !

I'm very happy to try this "NEW BIG DWARF" this year and i'll follow what you suggest : to grow it in containers.
Thank you.

Gérard

[PapaVic]

Alan, with regard to the Long Island Champion Dwarf Seed Mix ...

In 2006, I grew 20 plants in heavy silt loam soil ... more compact soil than your farm, but more alluvial. If you remember, 2006 had a very warm first half of April - cool second half, mild May, wet-warm June, and torrid-humid July. I grew a batch of them in containers too.

I also grew Lime Green Salad and Silvery Fir Tree, both dwarf types, and both in the ground and in pots alongside the dwarf mix plants. I grew all the LISP and the LGS in containers and in raised beds in 2007. In 2007, I also grew Pixie Gold hybrid dwarf in containers.

The individual plants from the dwarf mix are of different varieties and did not all grow the same. The red fruited ones grew well in both the ground- level garden and in 4 and 5-gallon containers, but got substantial fruit rot sprawled on the ground and got a little BER in pots - but not anything significant. They bore more fruit in a sprawl on the ground than in pots.

The pink LISP dwarf grew better in a pot, IMO, because it remained more erect and controlled and got less fruit rot, but the pink got significant BER in pots both 2006 and 2007 when the weather got dry ... even when I watered them almost every day. The pink is most prone to skin splits too, and has the softest texture.

The "Red Bullet" that popped up in a single plant in 2006 is the most prone to fruit rot when grown on the ground (where I found it) but it also will produce the most tomatoes that way. When grown in a pot, it is the healthiest of the bunch but produces less fruit. I grew four of them in 5-gallon containers and five of them in raised beds in 2007, and the ones in the containers had the healthiest foliage of all the dwarves I grew.

The yellow and the gold LISP dwarves are, in my opinion, the best all around of the mix to grow in containers. They remain healthy, productive and taste the best of the mix ... with a zingy, fruity flavor. The yellow is zippier than the gold ... the gold is sweeter than the yellow. There is some variation in productivity with some of them producing in a more concentrated set and some of them producing more fruit over all, but in several spurts. All of the yellows and golds had healthy foliage, but not as healthy as the Red Bullet. The Red Bullet and the yellows and golds would be my choice for containers.

By comparison ... Silvery Fir Tree had BER bad in containers. Lime Green Salad will produce in smaller containers ... I grew it all the way down to 3-gallon with good results. But LGS has some foliage and BER issues as the container gets smaller and also sets less and less blossoms. It already has a tendency to spray out ten times more blossoms than it sets. The Pixie Gold has the prettiest foliage ... an almost potato-leaf rugose that stands up at a 45* angle to the stem, but is underproductive. It does set a few nice sized, sweet, perfectly shaped, gold fruit. I saved some seeds from the F1 plant, but haven't replanted. It grows very well in a 4 or 5-gallon container ... just not too productive.

pv

[kctomato]

canadamike said:

Fruit taste and production is relative to photosynthesis and root mass

... and genetic potential

Because there is less leaf coverage for the amount of fruit produced, the roots have to play an even more important role at maximising photosynthesis.

I wouldn't agree with this. Usually there is a balance between the masses. A larger root mass could take up more but the conversion to food takes place in light. Limiting the surface area for that conversion likely negates what amount of conversion can take place.

Think of it as having twenty delivery trucks bringing in food to a restaurant but only 1-2 cooks to prepare all that food.

Given that the soil is lighter, hence easier to ''colonise'' for the roots, and fertiliser can't run off as much, staying more present for them, it only makes sense that container growing would render the plants more productive.

Other than sandy soils, containers usually require more fertilizers and leach must sooner than most soil types. That has to do with porosity, properties of the soil and the physics of growing in a "column".

[canadamike]

KC:

Many thanks for your contribution. You make me scratch my head...

And that's not nice of you...Shit! I got to get back on Head and Shoulders ! ;D

I) Agreed on the genetic potential. I considered it a given and passed by it..

2) You are right .

3) True, and I should have been way more explicit. I use a lot of vermiculite in containers, and to compensate leaching regularly add mostly manure or alfalfa or seaweed tea, sometimes top dress with compost.

I should have said '' has the potential of easier colonisation by the roots '' ( I am not sure that -colonisation- is the appropriate term, I have language limitations here) ---''in a light medium if appropriately fertilised''

Since it is the same plant with the same genetics, the environment has to play a role. It is the same environment above the ground, so it is logical to deduct that what happens underground is capital here.

But then KC, what is it? We need a WORKING explanation...


BTW, can you tell me who the funny banjo guy is ?


Thanks,

Michel

[kctomato]

Stringbean - he was on with Bill Monroe's band before Earl Scrugg's replaced him and he was on the TV show Hee Haw.

Lots of potential things can explain the yield difference. Things that come to my mind are a warmer root environment and more oxygen. More fertilizer and/or more available would come to mind also.

[Alan]

Thanks for all the information guys, I really appreciate it and I will give these guys and some other dwarfs a go this coming fall and see where that leads me. I do think it would be nice to grow productive dwarf types, particularly of saladette and off color types to market as a specialty and get a price premium in late fall early winter while being able to save space and grow more in the smaller greenhouse, which is my main impetotous for trying this experiment.

[flowerpower]

Alan, I grew out the red, pink , yellow, gold and red bullet. Some in pots and some in the garden. Although I watered the potted ones, I don't think I ever watered the ones in the ground. They all did very well-especially the gold and pink. I wasn't crazy about the red's taste. But will give them another go. I did like red bullet alot. Nice mini-plum taste, cool heart shaped maters.

[Jim]

How big of a pot do you think they require? Also I have seedlings for the very dwarf mix from LISP. How big of a container do you think they require.

[PapaVic]

Results may vary for other growers. My results regarding container sizes for the LISP dwarves I've grown is provided above in the fourth post of this thread. Please note that when growing them in smaller containers as I did, frequency of watering and fertilizing is a big consideration.

[Jim]

ahhh....should have read it more before posting. OK. Now the very dwarf mix says 12" plants. I was thinking 2 to a 3 gallon tray?

[jtcm05]

Mike, I agree with Craig.....New Big Dwarf is the best tasting dwarf i've grown so far. Original source was Victory.

[PapaVic]

Okay ... regarding New Big Dwarf, and other large-fruited dwarves, which ones have a radial crack tendency? A lot of pictures I see of New Big Dwarf show fruit with two or more large radial cracks ... which is damned ugly IMO. Same with some of the pictures I see of the large-fruited dwarves in the Tville dwarf project. Maybe this is a carry-over from the large-fruited, old fashioned parents used to donate size to the dwarf cross.

Whatever it is, I hate a cracky tomato. And yes, I know all the stuff about "even watering" blah, blah, blah. But some tomatoes just seem more prone to big ugly radial cracks than others. For example, I grew Spudakee with Cherokee Purple on the immediate right and Tom's Yellow Wonder on the immediate left. The Spudakee didn't crack and the other two did ... same growing conditions for all three.

What's my point? Nothin' really ... just looking for some nice, medium to large-fruited dwarves ... 2 - 3 feet tall tree types ... with decent flavor and healthy foliage. Got any suggestions?

Edit (to stay on topic, kind of): BTW, in the Long Island Champion Dwarf Mix, the yellow and the gold do not crack ever, but are smaller and more like large cherries or small saladettes. The large round red cherry/small saladette usually doesn't crack but is soft-fleshed. The pink has some crack tendencies, will split after a heavy rain, and is prone to BER. The dwarf red heart (Red Bullet) is firm-fleshed, blemish-free, will not crack and does not get BER. And I haven't seen the green-when-ripe come out of the mix yet.

[Jim]

papavic,

With any luck either you, I, Lynn, or Alan should see the green when ripe this year. I think we're all growing them. I'm getting addtional planters just for a dwarf grow out...

Jim