Genetic Vigor

[brook]

Most of the literature on seed saving deals with methodology of keeping seed pure, and the how-tos of collecting and saving the seed. All important points, to be sure.

One thing to be aware of, too, is the number of plants you should be saving seed from, in order to maintain genetic vigor.

What we're talking about is the number of plants you need to assure that the entire genetic make-up of the population is represented by the seed you save.

I'm sure you've noticed, for instance, the normal variations within a variety's population. There are differences in size, in shape, in color, etc. that are normal. And those are just the visible ones. There are also hidden variations as well. You want to make sure to save all that germplasm. Otherwise the plants eventually stop producing as well. Mountain folk say the seed as "run out."

How much seed to save varies by type of veggie. Highly in-breed types, like tomatoes, require fewer plants. Out-breeders, like brassicas, require more. And the multi-ploid nature of things like corn means an incredible number of plants.

Here are some general guidelines:

In-bred varieties (i.e., tomatoes, peppers, eggplants): At least 5 plants.

Beans: At least 20 plants.

Outbreeders: At least 30 plants.

Corns: At least 100 plants.

For all others, seed should be saved from at least 15 plants.

[brook]

What happens if you don't have enough room for that many plants? This is not uncommon in home gardens. Over time you suffer a loss of genetic vigor. But there are ways around the not-enough-land problem.

One of the best is to form a growing network with four or five other gardeners. Let's say 5, so we can do the math easily.

You only have room for a small bean trellis. Not a problem. Divide the seed so that each of you grows 4-5 plants. Save seed from all those plants. At the end of the season, when the seed is dried and ready, you combine all of it, then redivide it among the group. Everybody is therefore assured that their seed represents the full genetic structure of the population of that variety.

Forming such a network also serves as a safety net, particularly for rarer varieties. Let's say you have a bad year, or even a total crop failure. The other members of the group may not have shared your hard luck, and you still have ample seed for next year.

[Alan]

Those are terrific ideas Brook and thanks for bringing them up. There are a few family heirlooms from the 4 sides of my family that I have collected from grand-parents, great grand-parents, and a 2 great-aunts, all of which are from Ky and all of which i'll send you seed for this fall, however some of them have almost "run out" because people would only save seed from one fruit off of each plant, i'm going to try to get as much out of them as I can though. Let's cross our fingers and hope!
-Alan

[johno]

Just want to echo Alan - great points to bring up!

[downinmyback]

I remember seeing a show on TV (probably one of the discovery channel) that spoke of this happening in the government seed banks. It said that they only plant a variety around 7 years and that made some of the seeds unable to germinate so that everytime they grew out a variety a few times that it had narrowed the genetic material. They gave a example of heirloom corn which was several colors on the ear but after twenty years the corn had already lost about half of the color that it should have.They said that America was losing the battle to keep heirlooms seeds.

[cannaisseur]

Maybe someone can clear something up for me. Why are so many people against hybrids? I always thought that if you combine two pure seedstock together, if it came out well, it also had the hybrid vigor that none of the parents did, thus performing better overall. If after they produce f2 seeds, although it won't have the vigor of the f1, won't it still have enough variation to still get great plants? Especially if the parent stock is excellent quality?

[downinmyback]

I am not against Hybrids but i find most hybrid vegetables have lost the taste i knew when i was growing up. Most company create hybrids for the general truck farming which mean how good it ships and if you have a long shelflife instead of taste. A Brandywine would never have made a good shipping or storage tomato because of the cracking in the skin. Also i feel it is up to everyone to protect our OP varieties for the next generation.

[Alan]

cannaisseur, the only problem with that is selecting out the qualities you want, such as matching the original hybrid, which is sometimes close to impossible. Basically, you would have to grow out a multitude of plants from f2 seed, find one that is interesting and usefull or closest to the hybrid, save the seeds, grow out several of those seeds, pick what you liked in the last generation again and repead between 6-15 times to get a stable Open Pollinated variety. Some of us do just that, that is make our own hybrids, select and save, select and save, and segragate the genes into "pure Lines" or even take certain commercial hybrids and grow them out to the open pollinated lines, so In short it can be done, it just takes a lot of time and a lot of space. To me, hybrids are fine, not my favorite, but fine, as long as they aren't GMO's I'm happy I just prefer Open Pollinated stuff because I like my corn to taste like corn and not sugar and because I like being self-sustainable. I hope I explained that ok.

[cannaisseur]

That makes sense Allen, and I can understand the importance about protecting certain types. I was not aware though that a lot of the flavor can be lost.
I have this fear that has been expressed by several reputable persons that those who have heirlooms are in a critical point, because gmo genetic pollution is spreading all over the world, and they feel that in a short time, it will be almost impossible to find any type that is completely free from gmos. They mentioned that the only way to deal with this, is to have a indoor facility where even the air is filtered, to make seed for the next generation. They feel that in time, you will need an indoor facility, along with any land outdoors. Indoors is to preserve the lines, while outdoor is for production. The outdoors are never to be saved. I don't know how bad it is currently, or how soon this will take place, but I do know that corn is in a critical stage, as its been mentioned that its now almost impossible to find any wild, or farmer's crops that are free from gmos, even when the farmers plant good stock.

[brook]

Downinmyback: Typical of those Discovery Channel documentaries!

In the first place, the U.S. does not have seed banks. It has germplasm repositories. Their purpose is to provide germplasm for research and plant breeding. Unlike true seed banks, no attempt is made to assure purity of the seed maintained.

In the second place, grow-outs at our PI Stations are based on budget, other priorities, and manpower levels. There is no set grow-out period, and some of the seed has been in those freezers for 40+ years without having been grown.

And third, there is no reason why being frozen 7 years should have any affect on viability, germination rates, or genetic vigor. Indeed, for most plant types the seed could have been kept unfrozen that long and still show a 50% or better germination rate

Other than that, it must have been a great documentary.

[brook]

Cannaisseur: We could probably start a whole thread on what's wrong with hybrids. But just to summarize.

First, a definition. Technically, any stable cross between two plants is a hybrid. That's one of the two ways that new varieties were created in the 19th and first half of the 20th centuries.

But that's not what is meant nowadays. Instead a hybrid is the F1 generation of two inbred lines, each of which has been selected to concentrate a particular characteristic or group of characteristis. The F1 is created by gang-crossing those two lines, and is a proprietary seed---which means the creator owns it. Indeed, they used to go so far at to patent them, but don't, anymore, because then they have to reveal the parents.

If you save seed from the F1 what you get is a cross section of plants representing the full genetic background of the parents. These are not necessarily bad, but are generally not stable. And certainly are not the variety you expected.

So, the first problem with hybrids is availability. As my friend Jeanne Lane says, "who has the seed controls the feed." The only source of that seed is the creator (which, more and more nowadays, means Monsanto).

The next problem is flavor. Or the lack thereof. Hybrids are created to meet the needs of the food distribution system. Flavor is not one of the selection criterium used. So any time a hybrid does have taste it sneaks in by accident rather than by design.

Some of the things selected for are: Toughness to withstand the rigors of truck, train, and plane transit; ability to withstand cold storage for long periods; uniformity of size, shape & color; resistance to pathogens; early (and sometimes late) maturation; etc.

Now, on the question of hybrid vigor. It isn't that the parents lacked vigor. By definition, the F1 has the full genetic spectrum of the population. And, because the seed is created new every year, it can never run out, no matter how few you plant.

With OPs, you maintain vigor by saving seed from enough plants to assure maintainance of the complete genetic makeup. Do that and it will never run out. We've been doing it that way quite successfully for 10,000 years, vs the mere 50 that hybrids have been around.

Hybrid vigor is one of the lies and half-truths we've been fed for the past half-century. And most of us, unfortunately, bought into it. Now we're realizing it was all a shuck.

For 50 years they told us that hybrids were the salvation of agriculture. Now they're pushing GMOs which will solve all the problems of hybrids. Huh? Play that again, please.

At base, everyone has to make their own decisions as to what they will or will not plant. Personally, I won't put a hybrid in the ground; as much for political reasons as horticultural ones. But the basic question is this: Do you believe in sustainability? If you do, then hybrids are out, because you can not have a sustainabile garden if you depend on others for the seed.

[brook]

>because gmo genetic pollution is spreading all over the world, and they feel that in a short time, it will be almost impossible to find any type that is completely free from gmos<

Don't believe everything you hear from doomsayers. And make sure you check your sources, because nowadays almost everyone has a hidden agenda.

This "threat" is pure nonesense. It could only happen if all plants were wind pollinated, when, in fact, comparatively few are. That would certainly include corn, however, which is why virtually all "gmo pollution" incidents involve corn. Even with corn, however, the problem has been seriously over-dramatized---especially by the conservation lobby.

Keep in mind, too, that genetic modification is only being done with major crop plants. Granted, that's bad enough. But there's no way you need worry about polluting a vegetable type that has never been modified---which includes the vast majority of them.

Genetic modification has been mostly confined to grains (cuz that's where the money is, my dear) and a very few other global crops.

Don't get me wrong. I believe frankenfoods are the devil incarnate. They should be banned everywhere. And anyone who's had anything to do with their creation seriously punished in a biblical manner. But overstating the evil doesn't help us get rid of it. It just identifies us, in people's minds, as extremists.

Furthermore, the idea that you could only assure purity with a filtered, climate controlled building is ludicrous on the face of it. Those of us serious about seed saving already have a vast arsonal of isolation techniques that do not require such herculean approaches.

[Alan]

I am inching closer to the "self-sustainable" line this year than I did last year, there are very few hybrids making an appearance this year other than sweet corn. The few tomato's making an apperance are burpee tomatoes that I want to de-hybridize just for fun. My problem is that no matter how self sustainable everything on my farm becomes, sweet corn will always be a problem for me since I am a market farmer/business owner. Finding a good O.P. sweet corn that holds it's flavor for an extended period is an impossibility at the moment and with all the amateur breeders tied up in tomatoes I don't see any novel impovements happening anytime soon unless I can find one myslef. I can't sell O.P. sweet corn because of the rapid conversion of suguar to starch that it shows, I do however maintain and grow several O.P. lines for breeding and my own eating pleasure (sweet corn that tastes like corn is a plus, try golden bantam if you don't believe me).
-Alan

[brook]

Is a definate problem, Alan. Many of the OP sweet corns lose their sweetness within an hour of picking.

I know one family in which grand-dad insists that the water be at a boil before he goes out to get the corn. That way there is the minimal amount of lost time between picking and cooking.

But you touch on a very real problem. Whether for economic or personal reasons, it's difficult for most people to totally abandon hybrids. Which is why I repeat, everyone has to make their own decisions about these things, and do what works best for them. My choices may not make sense for the next guy, and vice versa.

The only thing I'm adament about is that one cannot, by definition, have a sustainable garden if it's based on either hybrids or chemicals.

[downinmyback]

I remember seeing where most of the commerical coffee varieties were almost destroyed a few years ago by a virus that nobody could find a cure for. The answer was to go back to Africa and find varieties of wild coffee. They found one that was resistance and it was crossed with the commerical variety and thing returned to normal. This is what everyone complain about. What if the wild variety had not been there would we be drinking Tea instead of Coffee. That could be the same thing if we lose OP varieties.