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Post by PapaVic on Jan 25, 2008 23:06:49 GMT -5
Michel,
I'll include some Brandywine seeds in the envelopes I mail you with the Romeo. I'm glad to hear you can grow Big Beef up in Rockland, Ontario ... that gives me an idea what else would do well up there. No guarantees. After all, different results are always possible in different soils and climates.
Bill
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Post by Alan on Jan 26, 2008 11:39:07 GMT -5
I know Bill sent me a pretty nice and productive line of Brandywine last year that I am doing some selections on, it actually did really well here last year but I'll have to see what happens with it next year.
Another line that Bill has sent me that he has been working with which I have also done some backcrossing with and other Filial generation growouts and selections of is "Brandy Boy" which may represent a progression towards a nice sized, similar tasting alternative to Brandywine. Some people argue that Brandy Boy is open pollinated, but let me just say, these same people have probably never grown four hundred plants out of 4 different filial generation to see the diversity that can arise, while I haven't gotten any increadibly "off types", I have seen regular leaf traits, small fruit traits, and a couple of red fruiting plants with regular leaf trait, taste wasn't there in those lines and so they were scraped (could this be Bucks County in the lineage?).
However, Brandy Boy's selections tend to do very well in natural/orgainic agriculture systems and produce a lot more than brandywine while also being a bit more crack resistant. The only difference is a slight descrepancy in taste, a descrepancy that might be fixed, along with a few other characteristics, by crossing the Brandy Boy segregates to something like Brandywine or Stump of the World.
All in all, this is just that much more progression towards a more "marketable" and forgiving version or alternative of "Brandywine"
As an aside, while I don't believe for a second that Brandy Boy is Open Pollinated, I do believe that the parents where very closely alike with the original breeders selecting for one or two characteristics to be donated from one parent to the other which explains why this particular cultivar and it's segregates don't show too much diversity when seed is saved and grown out from early filial generations.
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sammyqc
grub
Urban, small raised beds, Zone 5 (Canada)
Posts: 94
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Post by sammyqc on Feb 7, 2008 12:53:49 GMT -5
Very interesting topic. I'll be the first to admit I don't know very much about plant breeding, but I enjoy reading what you all have to say about it. I'll also admit, I have/had the potential to be one of those plant snobs, because you never really hear this side of it. GMO and big seed companies/monsanto are the enemy of the heirloom!!
But once you have a stable OP cross, it's still kind of a hybrid, right? I mean, not technically or genetically, but it is the end result of crosses purposefully made, and selected by the breeder. But it's not what some would say "an heirloom". So for the purpose of orgs like SSE, it shouldn't qualify, yet it does. And if people didn't grow it, that strain would eventually disappear too, along with all the work the plant breeder put into it. Anyway, just thinking out loud here.
Thanks for such an interesting thread.
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Post by PapaVic on Feb 7, 2008 16:58:52 GMT -5
I try not to get too serious about "definitions" as that just ruins the fun ... 'specially when the persons doin' the defining are also pushing an agenda.
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sammyqc
grub
Urban, small raised beds, Zone 5 (Canada)
Posts: 94
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Post by sammyqc on Feb 7, 2008 19:04:32 GMT -5
Yeah, I'd agree with that...definitions...some of the raging arguments on GW's tomato forum, holy cow, sometimes!!
I'm just finding the more I learn, the less I actually know!!!
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Post by Alan on Feb 7, 2008 19:55:37 GMT -5
Yes, the idea of new OP's still represent the culmination of the hybridization and segregation of various crosses over time. But, in the sake of honesty and fairness, all modern crops, even those coined "heirloom" or "heritage" went through either purposefully created hybridization, accidental hybridization, and standardized human selection pressures, making even the oldest of all seeds, effectively "hybrids". Hybridization is just the way of nature and is what leads to diversity, mutations, and a wide gene pool for us to select from.
A good example of this is represented in Native American agriculture, particularly the seed accessions which are available through Native Seeds/SEARCH out west. Many of the accesons of seed, though they represent a specific variety, will throw any number of different shaped, colored, or tasting types, particularly prevalient in melons and squash. Many of the Native Americans were known to mix their traded seed acessions, inteplant them, and select from the healthiest, most hardy, tasty, and usefull indivduals for seed, over time, without the pressure of selecting for "uniformity" which has been preveliant in the seed trad for a couple hundred years now, the natives ended up with unique varieties which would throw any number of uniqe combinations, however these combinations can no longe be undone, meaning you can't select one specific "type" of fruit from these accessions and grow out the seed to eventually segregate out those genes and only get those types, indeed these varieties are in fact, stable, open pollinated and heirlooms but are also the result of years of hybridization without modern selection pressures! Very exciting stuff to a guy like me and Native Seeds/Search is a great source for varieties and genetics for new varieties.
I guess labeling something "heirloom" or "heritage" is all in the eye of the beholder and also sort of pointless really. I mean, if I treasure something and give it to my son who treasures it as well, then to us it is allready and heirloom type! I think the problem that I really have with so called "seed snobs" is that they put anything of a certain age up on a pedestool, even if it isn't right for their gardening conditions or contains very little merit, and they act like that particular type is so important because of age, ext, ext. and yet anything "new" is not of merit to them, regardless of how well it performs and if you used their "heritage" variety to create it, well then that's just plain seed herasy!
It just seems like sometimes they defeat the purpose of gardening and seed saving by making everything so "stiff" and "regimented" when in fact being "lax" and selecting for survival are the things which created the "heirlooms" in the first place.
Don't get me wrong, genetic preservation is very important, and we need more of it, I'd just like to see some of the hardcore folks give a little more credit to new varieties, particularly those bred by independent researchers and breeders instead of seeing those varieties and the experimental crossing of varieties frowned upon by certain communities of seed savers.
Hope that makes sense.
-alan
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Post by PapaVic on Feb 7, 2008 20:26:34 GMT -5
... what would make good sense to me right now would be bitin' into a big, juicy, delicious TOMATO!!!
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Post by robin282 on Feb 8, 2008 13:26:12 GMT -5
Save the seeds! ...so that you have them to experiment with and make new improvements out of them. As long as you don't put a goat in my tomato, I'm fine.
I believe preservation is important, and tatermater's comments just underscore the need for preservation. He could not have his selective breeding go on without the old stock. All of our current garden plants are different from their wild predecessors, and are, therefore, hybrids themselves. They are stable now, but someone has been doing what tatermater is doing for hundreds--even thousands--of years. We must have both. We cannot have the improvements without the genetic diversity that preservation provides. Save & experiment!
Robin
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Post by darwinslair on Dec 23, 2009 21:36:37 GMT -5
I grew the brandywines twice and swore never to again.
I thought they tasted fine. But until I read C. Deppe's book last year the crosses I had were accidental.
Now I am thinking of working with Czech bush and German Pink to get a 3-4' tomato that tastes good, is strong as a tree, and doesnt need a cage or a stake to keep it upright.
Unless one of you has already done it, in which case I am happy to ride on your coat tails.
My German Pink was stong enough to never require a cage, but the production was as dismal as brandywine. Czech Bush are almost as sturdy, but at 20 tomatoes on an 24" plant, well, they get bent over to the ground.
Now if I could just get a cross that has more stem bulk to it, so that a plant can fully support 10-12 pounds of tomatoes.
and have them taste as good as Czech Bush ( I liked them better than German Pink)
Tom
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Post by mnjrutherford on Dec 23, 2009 23:05:42 GMT -5
Interesting Tom. You might want to consider Aunt Ruby German Green. Super big stems but they do need staking when they are around 5' to 6'. They produce awesome flavored fruit that are typically a pound or more in weight and they are fairly prolific.
Michael Johnson has sent me some "He Man" seed that I'll be using to test grafting with. They are supposed to be bacteria resistant with extra sturdy stems. Look for posts in 3 to 4 months regarding results. I'll also be growing one plant for seed.
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Post by castanea on Dec 23, 2009 23:07:28 GMT -5
I am still surprised at how many heirloom seed snobs there are. Like everyone else, I have immense respect for those who preserve heirlooms. We need them. But we also need those who look for new varieties through conscious breeding or conscious selecting. Those heirlooms would not have existed if someone had not discovered them or bred them.
And in the areas of fruit and nut trees, the same type of silly snobbery exists. People actively discourage others from planting seedlings of fruit and nut trees because they might not get a good tree. They will deliberately encourage someone to plant a grafted red delicious apple rather than planting a seedling apple tree. But every good fruit and nut tree came from a seedling, so why can't we plant more seedlings and try to find even more excellent varieties?
Both sides are important. But more important than taking either side, is to plant intelligently. If a perfect tree or plant already exists for your area, then by all means treasure it and plant it.
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Post by mjc on Dec 24, 2009 1:00:31 GMT -5
I think, but don't have any data to actually support it, that all the thousands of tomato varieties aren't really that numerous...that in that lot are a number of 'rebadged' ones, that for one reason or another are circulating. It is a well known fact that prior to the early 1900s seed companies were infamous for renaming varieties so they would have an 'exclusive'...heck, there's still a lot of that going on now. This is the main reason that seed purity laws, all sorts of licensing/state level permits/etc were passed. The 'snobs' are actually perpetuating the fraud by continuing to hold these 'rebadges' on high...
Another thing, how come the Amish are held up as the 'preservers' of so many varieties?
They aren't really...they are breeders. All the Amish varieties (doesn't matter the vegetable) didn't spring from the ground, fully formed and ready to be saved. No, they were bred, selected and carefully developed, sometimes over several generations. They did it to fill a need. If they needed something...they bred it. THEN, if it worked, they saved it and passed it around.
I've had this argument many times before and my standard answer is the 'at one point ALL garden veggies were a hybrid or selected/developed in some manner' one...because if you look at it, realistically, there are precious few veggies that are really worth growing in a carefully tended garden or for market in their wild state. Yeah, they may have genetics worth working with, but as food they really suck.
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Post by sandbar on Dec 24, 2009 1:16:10 GMT -5
Another thing, how come the Amish are held up as the 'preservers' of so many varieties? Marketing. "Amish" is a brand that sells exceedingly well. I live near Holmes county here in Ohio. Holmes county manufactures more furniture than any region ... in the world. No kidding. Every Amish man works in the furniture industry and they do very well. The furniture is well made and expensive. They are shrewd business men. They will also buy your timber for a song if you let them. I know ... they've visited our farm. Holmes county is nestled in a region of Ohio that has vast hardwood resources ... cherry, oak, hickory, ash (for a little while longer), maple. Anyhow, back on topic. Around these parts, one Amish man controls what all of the Amish farms grow in our area. The people just have that much faith in his selections and his mind is set on certain varieties and that's what everyone grows. For instance, they all grow the Aristotle sweet bell pepper. Ever heard of it? I hadn't either until we (local Master Gardeners) were doing a field trial and wanted to involve the local Amish growers. It was like pulling teeth to get them to put a couple dozen plants out and let us know what they thought. Almost as if they would be shunned if they dared to put anything else in their fields that wasn't approved by "The Man." Different ... I agree. I primarily grow heirlooms, but sometimes I need something more dependable and productive ... particularly in the colored sweet pepper realm. I've just not been pleased with my heirloom red and yellow selections. Maybe someone has some advice here?  |
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Post by bunkie on Dec 24, 2009 10:52:26 GMT -5
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Post by jonnyyuma on Dec 24, 2009 18:46:00 GMT -5
Hello All,
Aristotle is a hybrid bell pepper from seminis. It has been around for some time now.
Thanks
Jonny
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