Shall I Shallot?

[mnjrutherford]

Back in July there was some discussion regarding shallots in the Egyptian walking onion thread. My interest was overtaken by the discussion of "real" shallots. Up till now, I've seen only Ed's Red shallot seed. I've actually purchased said seed and planted with zero results.

Yesterday, we ventured to the next town over to the feed and grain store with the notion of getting some onion sets and some carrot seed. Nuthin fancy, just whatever they had from Wyatt Quarles. ANYhow, they had "shallot" sets! HUH?!?! ok so you KNOW that got MY attention!

Now, I'm pretty sure they are nothing fancy, but I would like to try to figure out if they are a "real" shallot or just some onion variety that looks like them. There was no variety info on the package at the store but they came from "Dutch Valley Growers". I just checked out their website online and they are what I call "southern standards". Red onions, white onions, yellow onions, sweet onions. That's what we call variety. ;o)

So, certainly no grey chicken legs or anything like that, but is it at LEAST a shallot? How can I tell?

[mnjrutherford]

BUMP Now that Michel is back, I would really love to hear what he has to say about my shallot conundrum and does anyone have any REAL shallot growing stuff (seed, set, or whatever is appropriate)?

[mjc]

There are shallots and then there are shallots...

Allium cepa var. aggregatum (aka Allium ascalonicum) contains the bulk of the 'shallots' AND potato onions/multiplier onions. Allium oschaninii is the other one, it goes by French Grey, Griselle or 'true shallot' .

The differences between potato onions and shallots (the cepa shallots) seems to be a matter of size and form. The potato onions tend to be larger, more spherical while the shallots tend to be more ovoid/pointed and smaller. Both come in a red, yellow white and variants of the basic colors (pink/purple/brown).

They can be grown from seed, but are usually propagated by means of planting back some of the bulbs instead of using them for food. There are even hybrid cepa shallots, that tend to be larger, but retain the classic shape. The hybrids, planted from seed can then be propagated from bulb divisions and come 'true'.

I'll be planting out several this year (I hope)...I've got some of those "Shallots" sets last year that did very well for me...they have a yellow/brown skin with a slight pink tint to the flesh. Nice flavor. I've also started Prisma seed (it's one of the hybrids), it has a pink-brown/red skin and gets a bit larger, it also has good flavor. I'm trying to get a couple of others, including the griselle.

[canadamike]

It is said that true shallots don't produce seeds...they say the same thing about garlic and it is not always true.

I would have to see a picture mjn...I went to their site and saw nothing.

Being of french extraction, I would never call anything yellow a shallot.
The pinkish/grey inside color is part of the mystique...

One way to know is cooking with them. They impart a richer taste to any dish than onions. As I said earlier in another post, there are also ''échallions'' and they are becoming the norm in many area. They have the color and taste ( very very hard to differentiate) but are singles, i.e. they are not multiple bulbs, by that I mean a true shallot, if not already a double bulb, will always have doubles under a few layers of common ''meat''. I am being very french tonight...not sure of my choice of words here... The échallions are kind of long and slim. The best known in France is ''cuisse de poulet du Poitou'' translated by ''Poitou's chicken leg''

I was unaware of the Allium oschanii/grey shallot link. It does not surprise me though, as alium oschanii is a parent of the actual onion, allium cepa. It has been proven by DNA analysis.

I had grey shallots in France last fall, and boy are they strong and good. Exceptional.

Mjn, shallots are ALWAYS diced extremely finely to extract the maximum out of their taste. I like to eat raw onions, and they are good like that but only really shine in cooking, and boy do they SHINE. So, give us a few pictures of the shallots as they are in the bag and also cut cross wise, and either mjc or me will tell you if they are shallots or not

[mnjrutherford]

Sounds like a deal there Mike! Though I confess, I'm worried knowing the soil they are currently in is frozen solid. I have never experienced this phenomenon and I was shocked to discover it! But, when I examined the little plot, all the garlic, "shallots", and even the carrots seem to be doing just fine. The onions have flopped over a tad, but they don't seem dead. Our cold snap is supposed to clear out today...

By the by, have you ever experienced Thai cuisine using "Fried Shallots"? It's a fine shred of shallot that is fast fried and used as a garnish for many dishes and salads in particular (I believe, don't quote me here).

What precisely is "potato" onion? I think I asked this question previously and was told that it is a large type yellow onion?

I'm getting the impression that this years agricultural lessons will be very focused on alliums, and I have you folks to thank for it. I owe you all some soup I think. ;D

[canadamike]

Yes mjn, I have tried fried shallots.

Your shallots and onions should be fine...

Potato onions are simply multiplier onions. I love them, they give you small onions early in the season. Some people call them yellow shallots, don't ask me why... but they are quite productive, and if you don't mind a not so round shape, you should grow loads of them...

[ozarklady]

Okay, more oniony questions.
I have never tried a shallot, nor a leek.
I can't seem to grow onions. I get them to the green onion phase, then they bolt to seed, or fall over dead.
I did find Egyptian Walking Onions. I have had them growing in my garden for two years now. I have harvested a few green onions off of them.
I got to looking at photos the ones I have make a bloom, then the blooms make another, and they are all in a row, and aerial. I have simply planted the small topset onions, and not bothered the bottom ones either. What part is it that you eat? Do you dig these?
I have tried to start leeks, same thing happens they go so far... then die.
What is the most goof proof onion that you know of?
I do fine growing garlic over winter, they don't get large, but they grow well.

[johno]

I've had good luck with leeks. They are one of my most reliable winter staples. Sometimes it's easier to give them over the winter to grow roots. I sow in late summer where I won't be disturbing the soil, and they'll usually take it from there. Otherwise, it's easy to let them dry up in our hot summers.

[mnjrutherford]

I DEFINITELY need more land... If I have even half the kind of luck with alliums this year that it sounds like I might have... I'm not going to satisfy my needs, I'm just gonna whet my appetite!

[canadamike]

Ozark, I have a few questions here, as it seems your alliums are definitely stressed. Is your soil too acid? They love to be on the sweeter side a bit. Do you provide them with ample humus? Are you using long day onion sets or seeds, wich would AUTOMATICLY cause that, at least in my nordic perception of Arkansas, but I might be wrong here. I'd sure look at intermediates.If using sets, do you use the smallest possible or make the mistake to select for the big ones?

When do you plant your leeks? They are cold loving alliums, and Arkansas is not my idea of the North Pole. Do as Johno does and use them as winter veggies.

[ozarklady]

I do have very acidic soil. But, I made one bed as a sandy bed, because onions don't like heavy clay... too no avail. I started all leeks from seeds, and killed them immediately upon transplant. Onions, I have tried seeds, sets, and plants... they all make great green onions.
I don't understand day length or what they mean there... So I usually get one of each, one long, one short, and one intermediate... same results.
To be honest, I haven't tried onions, other than the Egyptians and garlic in over 5 years, just resigned myself to buying them.
Is there any onions that like acid soil? Maybe my answer would be to grow them in a flower pot, in the house with the a/c on? ha ha I don't grow spinach, green peas, or onions, don't buy seeds. I was wondering if potato onions, or maybe shallots would be easier to grow?
I start all plants in the spring. I rarely start any for a later season. And only garlic have I over wintered. I buy about 3 pounds of onions a week, so it would be great, if I knew what to do with Egyptians, or how to grow the others.

[canadamike]

I can vouch that onions can take some clay if it is amended. You definitely are way too much on the acidic side. I would use dolomitic limestone if I was you, or garden lime and humus and I promise you a great harvest. Lettuces, green peas and spinach should do better, and probably most other veggies. If you don't have access to limestone, wood ashes would do the job very efficiently. You probably are in an intermediate light zone, meaning you could achieve ''some'' results with either long day or short day onions, but try the intermediates, you would optimize your harvest.

With long days onions, they grow leafs when the days are getting longer, but end of June or so, once they start to shorten, they start fattening. In a shorter day set up, they start fattening when there is not enough mature foliage, so they end up as green onions. The same principle applies to short days onions, ONLY AT A DIFFERENT LEVEL IN A SHORTER DAY ZONE.

[ozarklady]

How does one use Egyptian onions? Do you just use the little topsets, or dig the roots? Do they need to live in a permanent bed for a certain number of years first?

[mjc]

Use them for green onions, use the largest of the 'sets' like small 'pickling' onions or shallots...you can even dig and dry the largest 'bulbs' (most topset won't get very large bulbs, ever)...just about any way you can use any other onion, except rings...

And no, not really, but letting them have a year to get going is probably a good idea.

[cornishwoman]

Well along with my Mother wort seeds which didn't get whipped as they were still in my craft room I happen to have found some french shallot seeds,the lady who sent them to me wrote on the envelope "oignon rouge De Simiane,I know Simiane is an area in France where they grow lavender and of course rouge is red,and after that she wrote in large capital letters ,"shallots20009",the seed is quite tiny and black ,theres about 50 maybe more seeds,so seeing that people are being so generous to me I'm thinking I can repay that with these seeds if any one is interested. Kind of would like to keep maybe around 10 for myself.pm me,I guess I should say first come first served as that would be about 40 seeds left over.