Kokopelli

[mjc]

Umm...

Here in the US, even non-profits have to register with some government agency, usually the IRS and the state in which it has its main office/headquarters tax agency. Even an order for office supplies would be enough in most places here.

Heck, the Internet Archive has their pages archived back to 2002...

web.archive.org/web/20021124131602/http://www.kokopelli.asso.fr/

That should pretty much do it...

[nuts]

I just don't understand what Baumaux is after.What makes them act like swindlers?I don't see what they can win with such a way of acting.
They take the risc that these things will make a lot of noise and will harm to their reputation.

This is very weird,and I understand kokopelli is hesitating about undertaking action.
What is behind this?Is it some kind of trap?

[Alan]

It's just such a damn joke man! It's sort of like Seed Savers Exchange putting a trademark on the word Seed Savers as though that makes them the only legitamate organization. If you took seed savers and put them with Monsanto (on a much smaller scale) I get the impression you would have something akin to Baumaux in France.

[canadamike]

Baumaux has decided to play the game and ''abide'' by the rules, perfectly knowing they do not work, nore are followed by the big corporations or food chains. It plays a fake game of good citizenship.

It has decided to play the role of the pet of the house rules.

Nobody in France follow this stupid law, which is inconstitutional according to all western democracies. EVEN THE FRENCH GOVERNMENT ITSELF DOES NOT FOLLOW IT. THERE ARE FIGHTS BEtWEEN GOVERMENT BRANCHES.

The VERSAILLES'CASTLE, the outmost french touristic tool, own by the goverment, is growing KOKOPELLI'S seeds, despite IT'S OWN GOVERNMENT INTERDICTION.There are people within the system showing the finger at it. ;D ;D Basically, one branch ofthefrench goverment acts illegally bu says it has to to preserve the spirit of french history, which the actual law forbids. So the government cannot follow its own laws to make history accurate. All that in a country that is the biggest touristic destination in the world...because of history...Let's laugh a bit...

All over France there are examples like that. And all over France, I know, I saw it myself, you find ''heirloom'' tomato varieties, legally labelled ''amateur'', which forbid them to be sold commercially, sold in huge corporate stores...despite the interdiction...France is a legal joke, but also a way to hope...it also means stupid laws are not followed. By nobody even the government which voted them. But they are always like a dagger waiting to kill the small guy...

Oh! And by the way, just try to find an important garden in France without many TOM WAGNER tomatoes...I know, I was there... it is barely impossible, he is every friggin' where...( as if they were hundreds of years old heirlooms...) he even has some of his cultivars in the official goverment list, just showing how important his work is, and how he has incredibly penetrated the heirloom movement, his tomatoes, quite young in relation to old stand bys, have mad it to the list of the ''eternals''

Funny, a modern american breeder has created in the last years tomatoes that are at par with 300 years old ones....and is now recognized as ...an old french guy..in a weird way...

[Alan]

Although I didn't make it to France last year with my brothers due to personal issues, one thing that I find great concern in is the EU. Many of the issues that are ongoing in Europe are in my opinion the fault of the EU.

I won't go into my political ideas here, you can read those from time to time on the blog or on my facebook, but more is coming, the Eastern Hemisphere is only the begining.

[PatrickW]

I Haven't checked this thread in a few days, and I didn't realize there was so much activity here.

Jan 24, 2010 22:55:55 GMT -5 Alan said:

Although I didn't make it to France last year with my brothers due to personal issues, one thing that I find great concern in is the EU. Many of the issues that are ongoing in Europe are in my opinion the fault of the EU.

Alan,

Make no mistake, many Europeans are profoundly unhappy with the EU! They had to stop holding referendums on the latest changes to the EU charter, because they kept getting voted down. Instead they just forced the changes on us...

[plantsnobin]

I think it is hard for us Americans to really grasp these laws. We are so used to the idea of personal freedom that we can't begin to fathom how someone can say it is illegal to grow something-of course, we do have laws against cannabis, and the 'native' zealots are making it illegal to grow 'invasives' in many areas. But common food plants, it is just hard to see how this was ever passed. It is hard not to make a comparison of things that have happend in the past to what could come now-without sounding too melodramtic-just think of how many people have marched to their death because they followed laws.

[mjc]

It isn't really illegal to grow the varieties or save their seeds that aren't on the "List"...it's just illegal to sell the produce from them or sell the seeds (and even trade them). And if you can't take your produce to market then there isn't all that much reason to grow it...is there?

And part of the problem is not that the "List" has no OP/heirloom varieties on it (it does...there are thousands of them) it's that so many varieties were declared 'duplicates' and not included or there wasn't a local seed company willing to pay the fees to list them (which, if I understand correctly are not cheap).

So while the laws, as written, do not actually ban 'heirlooms', the net effect...which is actually worse...is that is what has happened.

[PatrickW]

I'm no legal expert, and I can't get into an actual detail on the laws themselves. They are intentionally vague anyway, and subject to interpretation. It doesn't really have to do with personal liberties however.

The bottom line with the seed laws is they require precise definition of what a variety is, ruling out locally adapted variations, and it's too costly and cumbersome to register varieties that don't have significant commercial potential. Since the definition is so precise, the seed has to be produced by a licensed seedsman who ensures a minimum of variance. And indeed the issue over eliminating 'duplicates' is a very sore point. This all effectively rules out developing your own variety and getting it registered. This of course makes it impossible for a small seed company to source a good selection of reasonably priced seeds of heirloom varieties.

Now when you think of a law, you think of something that's enforced by the police, and that's just not the case here. This is much more of an administrative law. Gardeners are completely free to grow what they want in their garden. No one is going to be bothered if seeds are informally traded, even openly over the Internet, although this is subject to change. I'm free to obtain all the seeds I want from other countries and import them. In the long run however it could turn into a situation like the recording industry and people downloading music over the Internet, and they try to crack down on the informal trading of seeds.

If you're a farmer, you just can't afford to grow illegal seeds. If you're dependent on subsidies, the bureaucrats who administer the subsidies will expect you to prove your seeds are legal. If you sell at a farmers market, and other farmers complain about your illegal varieties, you might be excluded from the market. If your produce is subject to any kind of official inspections, maybe it could be confiscated or remain uninspected. If you are a seed company like Kokopelli, you are subject to harassment and lawsuits.

There are a few farmers who do grow illegal varieties. I understand this is more common in France for example than other places, and I do see illegal varieties around here from time to time. These farmers always keep a very low profile.

People all over the world have perceptions of how personal liberties exist in other places. It's not uncommon for example that people who have never been to the US see it as a place where people often resort to violence to settle differences, are generally hot headed and promote a kind of cowboy justice that includes guns, other weapons and abusive police like on the show Cops. Many people are very afraid to visit the US for this reason.

We of course understand the situation is not quite like that, and there's a big difference between the US government and the people who live there.

In fact, I like living in Europe because I find the personal freedoms and liberties are greater here than in the US, but the difference is not huge. I do dislike the EU however! I guess there are some people in the US who dislike their government too...

[toad]

Sweden has an exception on the EU seed legislation, making it perfectly legal to sell any variety, but only in small seed packets.
I wonder, if Kokopelli end as a refugee organisation in Sweden on day?
Runåberg Fröer have a great selection of herilooms, but their website is only in swedish - most of you would need some kind of translater. They grow some of the heirloom varieties themselves.
I'm rather fond of EU, as it prevents some of the most stupid thing my government likes to do!
Fond, but no uncritical! Things can be done better. But when it comes to biodiversity, my government only do, what they are forced to do by EU. That's an improvement!

[Alan]

Toad, I am glad to see there is an exception to these Draconian laws in Europe.

My thoughts on seed laws are thus (this should be the legal standard)

Anything goes as long as it is labeled truthfully (hybrids, mixes, segragates, op's, germ, date) and is to whatever extent possible weed seed and disease free.

NO GMO's

But these two rules would make no money for the big corporations and the corrupt governments they controll.

[bunkie]

Jan 28, 2010 18:53:02 GMT -5 mjc said:

It isn't really illegal to grow the varieties or save their seeds that aren't on the "List"...it's just illegal to sell the produce from them or sell the seeds (and even trade them). And if you can't take your produce to market then there isn't all that much reason to grow it...is there? ........

i'm not quite understanding you here. are you referring to marijuaana and hemp, etc...? are you saying one can grow them legally, but not sell, trade, etc... the seed or plants legally? if so, that's not the case here in Washington state. we have big helicopters flying over our fields all the time taking heat sensitive pics to detect the growing of such plants.

even if we couldn't take our produce to market, it still could be used here on the farm.

that's great about Sweden toad! selling and trading in small packets or quantities is better than not at all, imo...

[mjc]

The "List"...the European Common Catalogue of Varieties of Vegetable Species and the various national lists that make up the CC.

It is technically illegal to sell, trade or offer for sale seeds or produce from varieties not listed, in Europe...here in the US we don't have that...yet (and hopefully never).