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Post by keen101 (Biolumo / Andrew B.) on May 16, 2010 2:07:51 GMT -5
So, am i the only one attempting to grow teosinte this year??
I actually planted two types of teosinte, and some gamma grass seeds in the same pot. I'm hoping they cross pollinate each other. One teosinte (from native seeds) is supposed to be an annual variety. But, the gammagrass and the other teosinte is supposed to be perennial. I planted some of these seeds in a few small clumps in with my other corn, just for fun.
I was thinking that it would be neat to investigate 2 things about teosinte.
1. Is is a good plant for using in food? Flour?
2. Would crossing the perennial traits into modern corn be beneficial or a burden.
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Post by bunkie on May 16, 2010 10:16:40 GMT -5
hi keen, and welcome to the forum!
we grew Teosinte several years ago. i can't remember right now what variety it was. we bought the seed from Redwood City Seeds. the plants grew about 4 plus feet tall and had very very very tiny ears, like popcorn or the tiny ornamental corns. too small to eat. it was a fascinating plant as i recall.
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Post by spacecase0 on May 16, 2010 11:22:30 GMT -5
the natives thought that growing it near your corn would help the corn, but I have never tried it to see if it fixes lack of genetic diversity in corn.
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Post by anthroman on May 25, 2010 19:46:23 GMT -5
i'm growing two perennial ( Zea diploperennis and Zea perennis) and two annual ( Zea mexicana and northern tephuan) strains of teosinte for an experimental garden at indiana university northwest....altogether i have thirty-six plants germinated form seeds i bought or aquired through the usda...so far so good...i am trying to harden off ninteen plants now that it has warmed up in indiana in an effort to get them out doors...i will have to move some inside this fall if i expect to gethem through a full growth cycle...but that's an issue for the autumn...right now i just need to sucessfully start. gardenengineer.blogspot.com/
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Post by keen101 (Biolumo / Andrew B.) on Jun 1, 2010 16:40:57 GMT -5
Cool. Great to hear it.
Yeah, the ones I planted were (Zea Diploperennis), the one from Native Seeds (Northern Tepehuan Teosinte) Zea spp., and of course the gamagrass (Tripsacum Dactyloides).
Are they supposed to have longer cycles than Maize?
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Post by anthroman on Jun 2, 2010 9:12:46 GMT -5
gamagrass isn't supposed to seed until the third season according to the stuff i got from the universityof missouri...no-one expects the teosinte to work this far north...it takes 153 to 155 days to flower...no idea how long seeds take to form after that.
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Post by keen101 (Biolumo / Andrew B.) on Jun 10, 2010 13:19:01 GMT -5
gamagrass isn't supposed to seed until the third season according to the stuff i got from the universityof missouri...no-one expects the teosinte to work this far north...it takes 153 to 155 days to flower...no idea how long seeds take to form after that. Huh. Interesting. They all do seem to be growing slightly slower than the corn. The Tepehaun (annual one) seems to be growing almost as fast as the corn, so maybe it will catch up. Thinning them out seems to make a major difference in growing speed. I planted them in clumps of 5-6 seeds, because i didn't know how many seeds would germinate, but i think all the seeds germinated, and they were severely crowding each other out. They do obviously have thicker root systems than corn. They also have major tillering coming up from underground.
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Post by keen101 (Biolumo / Andrew B.) on Aug 20, 2011 1:23:31 GMT -5
I planted some more teosinte this year, although i did get a late start on them. All my first plantings never germinated, so i actually planted a few around the same time as my watermelons. They are maybe knee-waist high, but not as tall as any of the corn. I highly doubt any will be able to tassel or produce seeds before winter hits. This year i tried to plant clumps of all the different varieties of teosinte i was able to acquire from the USDA. I have five clumps that germinated and am able to try and observe the differences between them. I have Zea parviglumis, Zea mexicana, Zea huehuetenangensis, Zea diploperennis, and Zea luxurians. From my observations it appears that Zea parviglumis is the closest to corn. It is the only one with leaves that have become the same size as corn leaves, it is also the only one that has "stripes "in the leaves like some "stripes" i have sometimes observed in my own corn from time to time. Zea luxurians appears to have no or very few tillers at all. Zea mexicana might be classified as the tallest, but also appears to have no or few tillers, and is somewhat distinct (hard to describe). Zea huehuetenangensis, parviglumis, and diploperennis have anywhere to a few to many tillers. based on leaf shape/size and growing habits in general, I'd have to say that in my opinion Zea huehuetenangensis is the most primitive. Zea parviglumis does indeed look remarkably similar to corn, and quite possibly the single parent species that led rise to modern corn. However i will add that i've had a thought in the back of my mind. I've read and gone over some of the hybridization work done by Mary Eubanks between Gamagrass and teosinte hybrids and how it illustrates the formation of primitive cobs from two parents that do not have cobs at all. I myself would have to concede that it seems unlikely that gamagrass is a parent of corn, but the experiment itself leads me to wonder if two distinct teosinte species could have hybridized to create the same result. I have looked at a map of where the teosinte species are supposedly found, and i think that if this did happen, the most likely crosses would have occurred in southwest mexico between Zea parviglumis and Zea mexicana, or between Zea parviglumis and Zea diploperenis. teosinte.wisc.edu/images/teosinte-map.jpgI took some pictures of my teosinte plants this year, but in the next few days i'd like to take some more. If anyone is interested i can share those pictures with you.
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Post by DarJones on Aug 20, 2011 2:26:31 GMT -5
The hurdle Mary Eubanks has not overcome is Mangelsdorf's influence in trying to push his tripartite theory of corn origin. Here is a simple rationale.
1. How many species of teosinte are there? (5 minimum, max 9 if you allow a few that are still differentiating) 2. How many species of corn are there? (1 and only 1)
You can see how this has to work pretty easily. The group with the most species is the obvious progenitor.
Gamma Grass and Teosinte separated about 250,000 genetic years ago. Teosinte and Corn separated about 8,000 years ago.
Diploperennis is arguably the most interesting of the species that can cross with corn. But that is a topic for a different discussion.
DarJones
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Post by olddog on Sept 2, 2011 11:35:43 GMT -5
Just found this forum, and am fascinated by the corn studies. I grew teosinte, (Native Seeds), but the climate here did it in, too cold at night, warm days, it just declined. Foothills California, one of the worst gardening climates in U.S. ( a challenge). I believe the native Americans had something going there, as I was only using it for genetic diversity, and pest management, in my corn patch, which also did poorly the last two years, climate definitely changing, growing season is getting way shorter, nights getting colder, days getting cooler, and at random times, temperature dips down, very low. Very frustrating. For my purposes, have had better luck with the edible panic grass (from Native Seeds). Will probably try it again, though, don't give up that easily. Had heard it would cross back with a certain percentage of plants of Zea mays? Siver Queen did very well here, years ago. Lately, not so good.
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Post by keen101 (Biolumo / Andrew B.) on Sept 2, 2011 13:21:08 GMT -5
Welcome to the forum olddog, When you get a chance try and look through some of the past discussions, and you'll find that many of the people on this forum are working actively to breed and maintain varieties (or landraces) which thrive in each persons individual conditions. I've never grown the panic grass, but it sounds interesting. Keep us informed on how that goes. I'm sad to say that racoons got almost everyone of my corn this year (although i have some backup seed). I was only able to really collect one cob, and that was because that one was the fastest to dry (very flinty and clear kernels). I was disappointed because i actually had some huge cobs this year, and they were bigger than i have ever grown before. They were even producing well in the overcrowding conditions that i planted them in, so i think they must have had very good root systems. In future years i will pay much more attention to protecting these, and eventually try breeding them with the fast drying ones. The main stalk of the Zea Parviglumis was also damaged in the confusion, but the tillers are doing well. I doubt any of them will be able to produce seeds before winter, but i keep hoping. The Zea Diploperennis did not survive from last year which was disappointing. I had high hopes that it would have been able to. Much of my indian corn does seem to have good tolerance to cold spring weather, so if i could breed a hybrid with the zea diploperennis, maybe the cold tolerant genes and the perennial genes could recombine. It would have to be bred in a greenhouse i fear though. Maybe i can collaborate with one of the local universities. I think i may have found another teosinte that i didn't notice in the beginning of the season (the type from Native Seeds). It seems to have snuck in with my corn patch that was decimated by the racoons. It is undamaged and getting taller. This is the only type so far to reach the pollen stage before winter here in my climate (not grown in greenhouse), and perhaps another good candidate for cross breeding. I still have not been able to identify what species this teosinte is. Hopefully another type will be able to at least make it to the pollen stage. That would make my day. picture of my single cob that dried fast: strangely enough though, i did not plant any sweet corn this year or last year. Either some of the kernels lost moisture too fast, or they are recessive for sweet corn genes.
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Post by oxbowfarm on Sept 3, 2011 5:23:19 GMT -5
To me the most irritating thing about the whole origin of corn story is the way Mangelsdorf and Beadle took the typical childish academia step of personalizing a theoretical disagreement. From that point forward it becomes a two position tribal war and everyone in the field is forced to pick a side. It sets back progress on real research. And the stupidity of it is that they were clearly both brilliant men with a lot of practical knowledge to offer. And look at how much time they wasted, how much more would we know about corn, teosinte, and the process domestication, if they had collaborated together and agreed to disagree?
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Post by olddog on Sept 4, 2011 10:11:07 GMT -5
sorry to hear about the raccoons getting your corn. We have chipmunks out here, and the whole crop of grapes, Thompson Seedless, is gone. Will trade you a few raccoons for a large bunch of chipmunks. My dog chases the raccoons away, but dont know what to do about the chipmunks. Love the pic of the corn cob, beautiful. The perennial corn does sound very promising. It is good that there are still several species of corn to work with.
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Post by keen101 (Biolumo / Andrew B.) on Oct 15, 2011 13:31:47 GMT -5
Sorry about the large pictures. Thought you might like to see the latest teosinte pictures. Today i found the Zea mexicana silking today. Too bad i didn't plant some corn late. hopefully the pollen will mature soon and it will self pollinate. My Zea mexicana is silking today! Zea mexicana What's also cool about the Zea mexicana is that if those were corn cobs this plant would have about 6 cobs on one plant! Again, too bad i don't have any corn pollen available to try crossing this thing. Zea parviglumis The main stalk of the Zea parviglumis was actually much larger and thicker, but was damaged by a squirrel early in the summer. What you see now is the largest tiller. Zea luxurians Zea luxurians is really interesting because it has an enormously thick stalk. But it was short. Growth stunted Zea diploplperennis This Zea diploperennis was planted in a bad spot this year. It never got very big. Last year one was planted in a good spot, and had tons of growth. This variety of teosinte is amazing in it's full glory. Zea huehuetenangensis Overview: Zea mexicana is unique in the fact that it is tall and grows without any tillers. The "Northern Tepehuan Maizillo" variety of teosinte was able to reach the pollen stage about this time last year and had green pollen and also grows very tall, but last year did branch out once right before getting mature pollen. So far, only Zea mexicana is the only one to reach the pollen stage before winter, here this year in Colorado. Zea parviglumis was the first to have leaves as big as corn leaves, Zea luxurians was second, and Zea mexicana was third. Zea huehuetenangensis seemed the most primitive.
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Post by keen101 (Biolumo / Andrew B.) on Oct 21, 2011 18:04:31 GMT -5
s1010.photobucket.com/albums/af224/keen101/Garden%202011/s1010.photobucket.com/albums/af224/keen101/Garden%202011/I almost have teosinte seeds!!! This Zea Mexicana is very close to producing viable seeds, but it's almost dead now because of a frost we had the other night. I'm hoping it was able to self pollinate a few of the seeds, but it's doubtful. I think next year i might try to start of few indoors and transplant them to get a headstart. Only Zea mexicana and the N. Tepehuan teosinte have ever reached the pollen stage here in my garden, and Zea mexicana is the only one to reach the silking stage. I have high hopes for getting some viable seed from these two varieties next year. Oh, also i find it interesting that this teosinte also has some male parts able to produce pollen at the very top of the cob like seen occasionally in my Indian corn. Interesting, huh.
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