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Post by keen101 (Biolumo / Andrew B.) on Sept 19, 2016 2:19:06 GMT -5
keen101 (Biolumo / Andrew B.) good to hear you got some seed. Did you get any crosses done? I put in 10 seeds nearly a month ago, no germination as yet. Dug up five yesterday and clipped an end of the seed coat in the hope of helping the process. From a paper I read diploperennis is not supposed to have seed dormancy. Does anyone else that has grown diploperennis have any tricks or encountered this? Yeah i think i got at least two tiny cobs of something. Not sure of what yet, still waiting for the husks to dry down. No deliberate crosses, though at one point i was worried i wouldnt have enough pollen so i stole some pollen from what i think was field corn. I tried to stay away from the one field i saw that had red monsanto looking signs posted near the highway. Last time i grew diploperrenis specifically i think they germinated like corn. Maybe a little slower but not by much.
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Post by keen101 (Biolumo / Andrew B.) on Sept 19, 2016 2:26:55 GMT -5
It looks like I'm going to get my hands on some Z. diploperennis, and will be attempting to get it to flower next season in Washington state so I can cross it with Z. mays (of course). Apparently the problem in northern climates isn't the length of growing season, it is that the trigger to flower doesn't come until too late in our growing season. It looks like Z. diploperennis can be forced to flower earlier by simulating a longer night: www.agron.missouri.edu/mnl/70/77carlson.htmlQuick summary: they covered plants with a trash can from 7:00pm until 7:30am for 11-13 days in late April, 1994, in St. Paul, Minnesota. This trick might also give us some leeway to select for shorter-night triggering, by maybe doing something like only covering some plants for 8 or 9 days, and selecting the few that manage to fruit before the frosts get them. If anybody tries this, make sure you've got a good light seal. With some photosensitive plants at least, and possibly these, even a little light leaking in can prevent the triggering. A neat idea. I cant remember if joseph ever tried that or not. With my diplo hybrids this year they are now around 8 feet tall. So covering them now does not seem very feasable. (maybe i will take a picture tomorrow). Im just happy my little fence and the other abundant food sources this year have kept the raccoons and squirels at bay from knocking my teosinte down. I am planning on digging my teosinte up at the end of the season and bringing them inside as a last ditch effort to get seed. Although i do wonder about dormancy and how long they will remain green and those perennial nodules things. I seem to remember zea diploperrenis being a bi-annual unless im remembering wrong. If that is the case then are the bi-annual traits at play in my hybrid crop? Will they not set seed until next summer?
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Post by Joseph Lofthouse on Sept 19, 2016 13:59:40 GMT -5
The most I ever tried to moderate day-length was planting on the East side of a building under the eves. Wasn't successful.
The garbage can idea is wonderful!!! I think I'd try it on plants that are about a month old. It only takes 12 days. I might could be consistent for that long...
I overwintered Z diploperennis for several years. It didn't flower for me. Eventually I sent the rhizomes to a warmer climate.
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Post by starbuckwhy on Sept 19, 2016 16:59:51 GMT -5
i recently received some zia diploperennis x pollen from a wonderful benefactor. and have already crossed it with some of my hardy hominy hybrids corn, the tassels withered right after so i think it took well. will also be trying it with some other popcorn species and with some hybrids between glass gem and pinky popcorn. one of the ones i crossed it with ended up being a mutant in it's own right, with a long tassel and a cob with not husk at the tip. (picture bellow) so it will be extra interesting to see what kind of plant those kernels grow if they make it to term.
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Post by Joseph Lofthouse on Sept 19, 2016 20:54:31 GMT -5
My record keeping was approximately nothing this year, but I think that the corn in this photo is [Zea mays X Z. diploperennis] Ames 13502 and/or Ames 13503. It's throwing multiple cobs per shank. Often times all wrapped in husks from the mother cob.
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Post by Joseph Lofthouse on Oct 17, 2016 1:45:10 GMT -5
I dug most of the wild corn species the other day that were growing in the open field. The only two that had obvious rhizomes were Z. perennis, and Z. diploperennis. I saved both in a root pit for the winter. I have some still growing in a greenhouse. I brought a couple of rhizomes home to plant into pots. I haven't yet dug the Z diploperennis X Z mays plants, though I did pick the earliest maturing cobs from them. Here's a comparison between the two:
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Post by keen101 (Biolumo / Andrew B.) on Oct 19, 2016 0:44:10 GMT -5
I reported before that i successfully got teosinte and/or [Zea mays X Z. diploperennis] seeds. I may have jumped the gun on that. The few early tiny cobs it harvested did not seem to develop well. It's possible i got a few developed seeds (maybe like 3?), and i will try to save and plant those, but i'm not holding my breath. I suspect those were the hybrid-like cobs. But a week or two ago i dug up my tesinte patch and put it in a pot and moved it to the Garage because i thought it was going to get too cold. It had heated up since then but i think it's going to freeze in a day or two now. It's been fun hand pollinating the remaining plants as they silk and tassel. I think the reduced lighting in the garage was what finally induced them to start silking and tasseling unless it's just a genetic timing issue. Hard to say, but at this point i am assuming all of these are the annual teosinte Zea mexicana. These are still teosinte i want despite them not having the perennial traits. I hope to get viable seeds from these and i hope in the future to be able to use epigenetic changes and selection to move this population toward day-neutral and/or adapted to my season length. But this is all experimentation at this point. starbuckwhy you had mentioned you'd like some pollen. While i can't guarantee the pollen i'm collecting is [Zea mays X Z. diploperennis] or perennial pollen do you want it. I am assuming it is Zea mexicana, but it's hard to say at this point. I don't even know at what stage your corn is at right now.
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Post by keen101 (Biolumo / Andrew B.) on Nov 5, 2016 10:55:52 GMT -5
I found this today Since this seemed to have formed late i think this is a [Zea diploperrenis x Zea mays] x Zea mexicana pollinated cob. But it is possible it is selfed instead, i just cant confirm that. Either way it seems i have a few viable kernels to play with again. They have a sort of orange-grayish or yellow-greyish tint to them, a sort of unusual color. Here's hoping i find more teosinte seeds of any kind.
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Post by steev on Nov 6, 2016 20:28:11 GMT -5
Lacking a reliable scale, I would suspect that those are very encouraging-sized seeds.
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Post by keen101 (Biolumo / Andrew B.) on Nov 6, 2016 22:23:36 GMT -5
Lacking a reliable scale, I would suspect that those are very encouraging-sized seeds. Yes, i would say so as well, but the cob itself sure seems small. haha. I would say they are about comparable size to a standard popcorn kernel. Also somewhat of a teardrop shape so they resemble popcorn the closest as they are now. Though i do wonder what things will look like next year. I guess only time will tell. There is a remote possibility that this cob was actually pollinated with Zea mays pollen instead, though i don't think that is the case since that was the earlier cobs and those ones seemed to not have produced any viable seed kernels. I guess either way next year they should grow slightly differently. If they were pollinated by Zea mays i would expect a larger cob core next growout. But if they were instead pollinated by Zea mexicana i would expect the seed shape (and maybe cob structure) to change more. Again, only time will tell. I think Joseph said he got some viable [Zea diploperennis x Zea mays] seeds to make it from the rest of the seeds i sent him. I would be interested to see any pictures he might be able to come up with. Though he claims his record keeping was extra lax this year. haha. No big deal either way. But it sure was fun to be growing a teosinte (hybrid) that had a decent shot at making seeds before winter. A welcome change. I still would like to get Through back-crossing either some modern corn with teosinte mottled green/gray colors or stacking teosinte seeds in modern corn colors like blue, purple, chinmarked, etc. Someday maybe. One can dream.
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Post by Joseph Lofthouse on Nov 7, 2016 13:06:29 GMT -5
This is about half of the [Zea Mays (popcorn) X Zea diploperennis] seed that I collected this year. Pollination was spotty. I think mostly because the plants produced dozens of cobs over weeks, but only a few tassels. I typically plant corn in single rows without pollination problems, but this corn would have benefited from being planted in a block. The plants were mostly too long season or day-length sensitive for my growing conditions. But I collected seed from anything that looked viable in time. There is a cob of Unity flour corn in the photo for comparison. I didn't find any rhizomous looking roots. Zea mays X Zea diploperennis Cob with a few sweet-corn looking kernels. I collected lots of day-neutral Zea mays teosinte: Closeup: The short-day teosinte that I am growing in the greenhouse is flowering. Seems like the weather is cooperating to make seed.
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Post by keen101 (Biolumo / Andrew B.) on Nov 11, 2016 18:20:16 GMT -5
I'm interested in that day-neutral teosinte. it rather looks a lot like the teosinte that was available from NativeSeedsSearch awhile back. I'd venture a guess and say that it is. But hey if it grows for you and sets seed then it must be quick for a teosinte.
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Post by keen101 (Biolumo / Andrew B.) on Nov 29, 2016 23:51:01 GMT -5
Woo Hoo! I finally managed to get some viable looking annual teosinte to mature here in Colorado! When the weather first was looking to be cold i expected snow and dug mine up and put them into a pot an moved them to the garage. Because of the la nina year we actually had pretty warm weather until just recently. They got to pollen and silking stage in the garage so i hand pollinated them. I babied them for as long as i could bear and finally put them back outside to whatever their fate gave into. Yesterday i found the whole pot and 6 or so plants blown over from the wind and mostly dead looking so i started scavaging looking for any viable seed stalks or whatever their stacking cob thing is called. I think i actually found a few! as a bonus i found a small cob from one of the Zea diploperrenis-Zea mays hybrids that appears to either been pollinated with flour corn pollen or annual teosinte pollen. It looks very different from the first presumably selfed popcorn heritage cob. I'm affectionately calling these seeds my Christmas miracle. And they all said it couldn't be done. haha. I wonder if next year it will grow any better or not. I have higher hopes for the hybrids really, but who knows. The seeds so far are mostly white. I'm not sure if they will develop spots or speckles or grey coloring in the future or not. Thinking back my garage was rather dark the first few days so i think that is what finally triggered them to start producing pollen and silking. I guess basically an upscaled version of the trashcan method. As a celebration i decided to fill up a small plastic tray with some dirt and plant some seeds. It was a mish mash of some breeding peas, beans, parsley, lettuce, tomato, purple and orange fruit sunberries, white strawberry seeds, and some radish seeds. I'm testing out one of my new LED grow lights hooked up to an arduino controlled outlet timer set to turn on at 8am and shutoff at 5pm. Since i've never grown anything indoors before it will be my first experiment doing so. I may have to thin out whatever does decide to grow. I will try to take some pictures at somepoint in the near future of this setup.
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andyb
gardener
Posts: 179
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Post by andyb on Dec 1, 2016 1:15:59 GMT -5
Any particular reason for the 9 hour photoperiod? Seems a bit short.
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Post by keen101 (Biolumo / Andrew B.) on Dec 1, 2016 19:40:52 GMT -5
Any particular reason for the 9 hour photoperiod? Seems a bit short. no, that's about when the sun is rising and setting right now in the winter. It can always be changed later. I guess technically the sun starts at about 7 but it probably would be annoying for the light to turn on then, so i chose 8 instead.
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