Astronomy Domine

[Alan]

I should also add this is something I fully encourage Joseph, just be careful with those day lenght sensitive corns as breeding with them is a real pain in the ass and one wrong selection a generation or two in leads to the law of diminishing returns.

[blueadzuki]

Aug 12, 2011 14:19:42 GMT -5 Joseph Lofthouse said:

Aug 12, 2011 12:21:15 GMT -5 mnjrutherford said:

The other low-diversity race of corn is the Andean race, which moved south from Mexico into Argentina. It is the least like the northern flints, so it's my intention to identify Andean corn families and introduce them into Astronomy Domine. I'm also intending to introduce more genes from the Mexican highlands race: The posoles, the Hopi-corns, the Oaxacan corns. The Oaxacan corns are troublesome to me because they are day-length-sensitive.

That may be a lot harder than it sounds on the surface. Speaking as someone who actually has tried to grow some of those Andean corns they really do not do well around here. Not only are many of them day-length sensitive but temperature sensitive, and the temps they need is an odd mix that is hard to find anywhere here in the US. Too cold and they wont germinate, too hot (and for this stuff "too hot" means temperatures much above what you'd get above early spring in the NE) You might have a chance if what you are looking to add is something like morado, which is fairly lowland. but most of the cancha's need it to be cool, not cold not freezing, and need it to be like that for ridiculously long periods (270 days to up to 300 is not at all uncommon for Andean Corns, theyre used to somewhere where the climate stays the same year round). Out of the 600 kernels that went in my garden two years ago, only two tassled and none at all silked. And I think you are warmer than me. If you are that comittle to adding the genes, it may in fact be best to plan for it to be a pollen contributor only. Given where you are, maybe you can plant the seed in say early September (so the weather would be getting progessively cooler as they germinated). You might be warm enough to grow it over the winter. Even if you aren't you might have time to get the pollen, and be able to store it a couple of months till your "normal" corn is ready to recieve it.

[Joseph Lofthouse]

Morado corn grows acceptably in my garden. I haven't tried other Andean corns. My winter temperatures get down to -20F, so Andean corns might end up being a greenhouse project.

I was able to grow a crop of Oaxacan pyramid corn last year to increase the seed, but it matured a month after my sweet corn had been killed by frost, so I was not able to do the sweet corn cross that I had hoped for. It's looking even less likely this year.

Alan: Thanks for refreshing my memory. It's been a long time since I looked at the pedigree, and I think I only have the 2 year pedigree, not the six year. Sorry for being sloppy with my writing.... It's obvious from the characteristics of the kernels that about 15% of my (Ozark strain of) Astronomy Domine is definitely not plain old Iroquois sweet corn.

I figure it's at least a three year project before I would dare incorporate any of the very distant cousins into my version of Astronomy Domine. And some will never be incorporated due to being so far out of my specifications of what a North American landrace of sweet corn aught to look like.

[blueadzuki]

Aug 13, 2011 0:11:58 GMT -5 Joseph Lofthouse said:

Morado corn grows acceptably in my garden. I haven't tried other Andean corns. My winter temperatures get down to -20F, so Andean corns might end up being a greenhouse project.

You'll need a big green house, a lot of them can get HUGE (10-15ft).

[DarJones]

The above description of the loss of diversity in corn does not begin to tell the story. Corn moved out of Mexico multiple times over the centuries after domestication. Each time it moved, a different set of genes was included. Mangelsdorf and others agree that Southern Dent is a result of the most recent migration, probably of a variety known as Tuxpeno which crossed with Northern Flint to produce the dent corns. Other primary varieties such as Piricinco, Conico, Cuzco, Jala, etc represent original germplasm that has major variation compared to any other variety.

Putting this in context, if Joseph wants to increase diversity in his breeding lines, he would have to locate and grow plants from several of the primary varieties and incorporate the genetics into a base strain that can grow and produce in his climate. This can be done, but it is a lifetime endeavor. Also, he will be giving up much more than he gains in terms of diversity. The traits that make a strain grow and produce in Mexico will cause failure in Utah. Eliminating those genes will of necessity force him to concentrate the original genes that made his corn successful in his climate.

Just a few thoughts on a Saturday morning as I get ready to harvest Pennsylvania Butter Flavored popcorn.

DarJones

[mnjrutherford]

hmmmm.......................................... um... ok.....

so.... diversity disappears as the corn "moves" away from point of origin? Yes? Both location moves AND time moves?

Why can't we put the diversity back in by breeding? Like, my AD with Dar's Cherokee squaw? Wouldn't that up the diversity?

Also, if there is AD in France that has been growing for say, 5 to 10 years, and aclimated to both the temps and light.... And the same holds true for some AD from Utah and some from Africa..... Then someone like me grew all three side by side and they interbred and I replanted that seed for 5 to 10 years.... wouldn't I have increased the genetic diversity (GD) that way as well?

Or is the corn just so "simple" that regardless of where a particular variety or trait mix goes, the genes don't mutate to conditions over time?

[blueadzuki]

I think the idea is that, every time corn is grown your really only taking a small sample of what was in the field before (particularly if you are skewing your planting seed in favor of those that did best for you). and by definition a small sample cannot include examples of every gene you have (to do that you'd basically have to re-plant every kernel you got out, and even then you'd lose genes from the "kernels that could have been".) Yes in theory if you took AD from France and mixed it with AD from Utah, the result would likey have a few more genes than either starting parent, but in a generation or two almost all of those would be lost, as the resultant corn became something adapted to wherever you were. Adaptation and diversity are, in a certain sense mutually opposing forces; every time the corn adapts a little better to where it is, it loses the genes and gene groups that "didn't make it". The only reason to increase the diversity in the first place is to give the corn a wider base to start with, so as to increase the chances that, whatever problem you have, there is a plant in your mix with the "something" to deal with it. If you were growing your plants in a completely enclosed environment; where you had absolute and permanent 100% control over all variables in the growing cycle, going to a completely clonal monocultural crop, perfectly adapted to those conditions would be just fine and ducky. But no one has that much control over nature, which is why the diversity is needed.

[DarJones]

so.... diversity disappears as the corn "moves" away from point of origin?\

There is an opposite effect that as corn adapts to a given region, it increases diversity because it is successful in the new environment which allows new genes and combinations to flourish. So from a certain perspective, as long as you maintain a very broad genetic base, growing an adapted variety actually increases diversity over time.

The devil is in the details though and that means in the "broad genetic base". Corn is entirely dependent on humans for reproduction. If we humans select some kernels to plant and reject others, then inherently we are decreasing the genetic base. As an example, I crossed Cherokee Squaw X Silver King and grew the F1 seed this year. Now I am selecting out the kernels that are shriveled indicating they have the su gene of normal sweet corn. I am therefore maintaining a maximum diversity for chromosomes 1, 2, 3, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, and 10. But because I am selecting only kernels expressing su which is on chromosome 4, I am reducing the diversity of chromosome 4 in my breeding population.

DarJones

[mnjrutherford]

Well, clearly we need an emoticon for crossed eyes here.

Now... Here is what I'm taking away from what you are both telling me...

In the event of an EOTWAWKI situation, we should save the best seed of the best that we each grow. Every 5 to 10 years or so, we should take the added precaution of trading a portion of our seed with friends and neighbors trying to get as many samples from as far away as possible.

As it stands currently, we should be saving MOST of our seed from the very best we grow, BUT we should also toss in a few kernels from the lesser ears as well? If this is so, what approximate level of mix would you suggest? Say, 10 lesser kernels for every 100 prime kernels?

[Joseph Lofthouse]

My strategy for production crops is to:

• Regularly add small amounts of somewhat foreign genetics to the gene pool: About 10% per year, planted in the next row over from my main crop. These may be thought of as variety trials. This helps to broaden the genetic base from plants that are already likely to do well for me. If they grow well then save the seed from them, it they grow poorly then they may only contribute pollen.
  
• Maintain a hybrid swarm crossing block in which radically foreign genes may be identified for eventual incorporation into the gene-pool. These are the long-term breeding projects that may or may not ever produce a useful harvest of food. Rainbow Inca sweet corn would be an example of this. Keeping this population separate until well adapted plants can be identified protects the main crop from being swamped by unproductive mal-adapted foreign genes.
  
• Include a small amount of 2 and 3 year old seed in each year's planting. This helps to prevent gene loss from one unusual growing season.
  
• Grow a sufficiently large population to maintain genetic diversity.
  
• Be liberal during selection: for example by saving fruits of different sizes, shapes, colors, textures, flavors, and maturity dates. I don't feel inclined to save seeds from every plant, but I like many less than optimal plants to be represented.
  
• Swap seeds with the neighbors in order to enhance local adaptability.
  
• Don't save seed from things that are especially mal-adapted.
  

[12540dumont]

Dar, I'm working with rare corns from Italy.

These are corns that went from Mexico and were given to the Pope. The Pope doled these out to his/her underlings. And then they were grown in isolated areas. Each of course developing a regional sort of cult following.

I will take me at least 4 years to grow them all out without crossing them. An interesting trait I've noted out of this year's first crop is that there are no tillers. That is to say 90% have no tillers. There's one in every row with a tiller.

The seed is very beautiful and red. It is from Foggia and is a Southern type of corn with cylindrical ears. Locally it was called Nostrano agostinello.

So, I'm wondering what my taking these corns to California will do to them? When I send them back to Italy, will the be less diverse?

My climate is more like Italy than the Atlantic North East. I have long looked for grain corn that will take the weather. Of course the interesting thing about this corn, no one knows for what purpose it was grown. My hope is that it is a polenta corn.

So many questions.

Attachments:

[DarJones]

Dumont, That is has no tillers is a very telling statement. That means it was most likely derived from northern flint base stock because that is a trait common to the variety.

DarJones

[blueadzuki]

Aug 14, 2011 14:25:30 GMT -5 mnjrutherford said:

Well, clearly we need an emoticon for crossed eyes here.

Now... Here is what I'm taking away from what you are both telling me...

In the event of an EOTWAWKI situation, we should save the best seed of the best that we each grow. Every 5 to 10 years or so, we should take the added precaution of trading a portion of our seed with friends and neighbors trying to get as many samples from as far away as possible.

As it stands currently, we should be saving MOST of our seed from the very best we grow, BUT we should also toss in a few kernels from the lesser ears as well? If this is so, what approximate level of mix would you suggest? Say, 10 lesser kernels for every 100 prime kernels?

I've told this story many times before (and have probably gotten it wrong each time). But there was a corn reasearcher in Mexico who was watching and old woman select her corn for the next planting and noted that she was basically taking kernels from every single cob inculding some ones that were obviosly failures from last year. Her motivations may have been different (she claimed that as corn was a gift from God, it would be an insult to God to try and make the crop better.) but that selections would presumably make for the maximum diversety possible for her.
The 9.1% lessers you suggested sounds reasonable provided the weather patterns near you from year to year are fairly consisitent. if they tend to vary a bit more, up the lesser ratio. the more variable they are, the more lesser you add up to the old womans adding a few kernerls from everything equally. At that level of chaos, you may also want to disregard Joeseph's last bit of advice (about removing particualry mal adapted plant's seeds from the gene poole) After all what did terribly for you in this years conditions might do great if next years conditions are completely and utterly different. I'm variable enough that I've often joked that, if a plant does produce well for me, that's a sign for me to exclude it from the next year's planting, since with my chaos years, if it did well this year, it's almost guarnateed to fail completely the next. )

[ottawagardener]

This is interesting to me because as I was saving seeds from my diverse chickpea population, I decided to save every single one. First of all, they have already been selected by having been those that germinated and there is further selection for productivity because I am getting more of some than others. I decided that I would not replant only those that did well as I have only grown them for one year. Instead, I'm going to allow the slower selection above but I may segregate out some that are particularly promising.

[Joseph Lofthouse]

With peas and beans, I also save seeds from every plant that grows well enough to produce seeds figuring that some plants will produce 200 seeds, and some plants will produce 3 seeds, and that the better producing plants will eventually dominate the population.

I guess in theory that I don't need to remove mal-adapted plants because they pretty much remove themselves, either by not maturing seeds before frost, or by dying mid-season.