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Post by Joseph Lofthouse on Aug 31, 2010 19:32:23 GMT -5
So I have been cussing sugary enhanced corn because it has such a poor germination rate for me in early spring... I am starting to wonder if that might be attributable to human error rather than to the genetics of the corn... Lets conduct a thought experiment... Supposing that most of the seed corn in the US is grown in Iowa. And supposing that it rains several times per week on the farmer's field in Iowa that is growing sugary enhanced seed. So whatever is the farmer going to do to keep his seed from getting moldy or damaged by insects? I suspect that large commercial farmers are going to harvest the seed early, before it is fully mature, in order to prevent it from molding or getting eaten. Here is a YouTube video of one farmer harvesting seed corn. www.youtube.com/watch?v=mJ3m4ScAUkINotice how green and immature the cobs are that are being harvested. It doesn't look like they have started to dry down at all. [Harvested at 38% moisture.] When I compare the commercial se+ seeds that I buy with the se+ seed that I am growing I notice several differences... 1- the seed that I am growing is not filled with sugar when I harvest it, the seed has turned to starch. The commercial varieties still have a lot of sugar that can be tasted in the kernels. 2- The kernels that I am harvesting are much larger than the commercial seeds. (I attribute this to being better developed.) It's looking to me like the commercial seed producers are harvesting their sweet corn seeds in the milk stage or early dough stage, while I am harvesting mine in the late dough or early dent stage. I'm looking more favorably all the time at the prospects of developing a sugary enhanced sweet corn that germinates well in cool soil, since I am now attributing the poor early spring performance of se+ to shoddiness on the part of the commercial farmers that have been growing my seed. I wonder if sweet corn cobs could be covered with a material similar to that which is used to keep date palm fruits dry? It might be a lot of work... But think about how lucrative it could be to sell a se+ corn that grew well in early spring: And all you had to do was harvest the seed when it was fully mature instead of when it is very immature. Besides all that... Whatever development the embryo undergoes in warm summer or fall weather is development that doesn't have to occur in cold spring soil. Regards, Joseph See also: www.agry.purdue.edu/ext/corn/news/timeless/grainfill.html
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Post by DarJones on Aug 31, 2010 19:54:38 GMT -5
I would disagree with your conclusion Joseph. In this case, just to be ornery and strike up a good discussion.
I'm going to speculate that your germination problems are a result of planting in too cool soil with a variety that is very susceptible to common fungal pathogens in your soil. Since it is slow to germinate, the fungus gets it. Please note that se corn has a very thin pericarp as we have discussed recently. This increases susceptibility to fungal pathogens significantly in my experience.
Instead of focusing on saving seed that is fully mature, maybe what you should do is look for seed that germinates readily in cool soil. That trait is sadly missing in all of the varieties of sweet corn that I have grown.
The easy way to test this is to harvest some corn for seed when it is at the dough stage and harvest some more that is fully mature. When you plant it, you will be able to tell if there is a maturity effect.
The best suggestion I can make is that this indicates a possible need to cross Painted Mountain with a good se+ variety and select for cool soil germination. The reason for this approach is that it should help resolve the problem regardless of whether you are right re immature seed harvest or I am right re fungal susceptibility.
DarJones
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Post by Joseph Lofthouse on Aug 31, 2010 21:26:44 GMT -5
This spring I planted "Ashworth X se -- F2" sweet corn from the LISP. I planted it early (3 weeks before last frost) in cold soil. It germinated well. I have identified a number of plants from that planting as (inferredly) homozygous for se.
This summer I created a "Painted Mountain X se+" hybrid, so in a couple years I can begin selecting on that.
I'll choose a couple of cobs of se+ corn, and cut a couple inches off the cob every week to test the fungal susceptibility angle as well. (Since I believe that seed immaturity may play a big role in fungal susceptibility.)
In any case... selecting for early spring emergence will always be important for any corn that I breed for use on my own farm.
Regards, Joseph
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Post by DarJones on Aug 31, 2010 21:48:23 GMT -5
In that case, may I offer to swap you a few seed of my Cherokee Squaw X Silver King seed for a few of your Painted Mountain X se+? I won't know for sure if mine will mature for another 6 weeks but if it does, I should be able to spare a few dozen seed.
It would give me a good data point on performance of a hybrid with a good cool soil tolerant variety and would give you a chance to compare an interesting longer season hybrid with some unusual performance traits.
DarJones
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Post by Joseph Lofthouse on Aug 31, 2010 23:24:34 GMT -5
In that case, may I offer to swap you a few seed of my Cherokee Squaw X Silver King seed for a few of your Painted Mountain X se+? Yes thank you. I expect to post a more complete seed list about October after harvest is over and the seeds have had time to dry down. Regards, Joseph
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Post by Alan on Sept 1, 2010 22:34:10 GMT -5
Joseph,
part of the reason for commercial sources harvesting SE seed while in the late milk stage is due to the damage caused to SE seed with mechanical harvesting/cleaning. Due to the thin pericarp and higher sugar content the seed tends to be quite brittle and fractures easily. In some regards this probably does effect cool/moist soil germination just as the thin pericarp itself and higher sugar content also make them more prone to rotting.
Also, as we discussed on the phone, your welcome to the newest generation of Astronomy Domine seed for your breeding project if you would like some, there is a lot more SE seed and heritage in the new selections of the genepool as well as a wider and more advanced genepool in general.
Fusion, Astronomy Domine is incredibly tolerant and able to germinate in cold and wet soils, having been selected here in Southern Indiana over the past five years by planting 2-3 weeks ahead of recomended planting dates at soil temps as low as 50 F.
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Post by Joseph Lofthouse on Sept 1, 2010 23:36:53 GMT -5
Astronomy Domine is incredibly tolerant and able to germinate in cold and wet soils, having been selected here in Southern Indiana over the past five years by planting 2-3 weeks ahead of recommended planting dates at soil temps as low as 50 F. Astronomy Domine germinated very well for me in cold wet clayish soil when planted in early May, 3 weeks before last frost. Regards, Joseph
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Post by canadamike on Sept 2, 2010 2:23:29 GMT -5
I can vouch for AD excellent cold soil germination and also weed pressure ''fighting'' abilities.
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Post by Joseph Lofthouse on Sept 2, 2010 9:02:10 GMT -5
I can vouch for AD excellent cold soil germination and also weed pressure ''fighting'' abilities. Wouldn't it be clever if AD could thrive near tree roots?
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Post by DarJones on Sept 2, 2010 10:44:16 GMT -5
Being able to survive tree root conflicts is a possibility. It would be far better if it has significant drought tolerance. I have one variety of corn that has been selected for drought tolerance. It is a selectable trait though the effectiveness of selection is probably low. My variety produces a deeper and larger root system than most corn.
DarJones
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Post by Joseph Lofthouse on Sept 2, 2010 14:46:30 GMT -5
It would be far better if it has significant drought tolerance. Ain't it interesting? People that live where it rains regularly worry about drought... And me that lives in the middle of the desert don't have a care in the world regarding drought since we know that it's not going to rain during June and July so we've made clever irrigation systems.
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Post by Alan on Sept 2, 2010 15:38:37 GMT -5
Being able to survive tree root conflicts is a possibility. It would be far better if it has significant drought tolerance. I have one variety of corn that has been selected for drought tolerance. It is a selectable trait though the effectiveness of selection is probably low. My variety produces a deeper and larger root system than most corn. DarJones Deeper and larger root system is only one part of drought tolerance. Selecting for tassle and silk same day is efficient as well as selecting for nitrogen saving traits/elimination of extraneous bio-mass.
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Post by DarJones on Sept 2, 2010 23:28:50 GMT -5
Joseph, How much corn is grown under irrigation? and how much is grown with only rainfall? Perhaps the answer would be a clue as to the need for drought tolerance in corn. I agree that clever irrigation systems have a place, but don't see many growers building them.
DarJones
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Post by Joseph Lofthouse on Sept 3, 2010 1:04:27 GMT -5
Joseph, How much corn is grown under irrigation? and how much is grown with only rainfall? Perhaps the answer would be a clue as to the need for drought tolerance in corn. I agree that clever irrigation systems have a place, but don't see many growers building them. DarJones Your questions get to the heart of why I am breeding my own varieties of many crops... What is good for all those people might not be good for my garden or for my people. In my world and to my people, all corn is grown only under irrigation, and no garden vegetables can be grown without irrigation. As far as I can tell, the closest corn to me that is grown only by rainfall is over 300 miles away in Hopiland. And perhaps with Hopi water collection methods being what they are, they might be considered to be growing under irrigation as well. There are something like 600,000 square miles of land around me in which only small grains and alfalfa can be grown without irrigation. We are constantly building and improving clever irrigation systems. We store enough water during the winter and spring to last us through the 60-80 days in June-July-August in which there is zero rainfall. I do not need drought tolerance in corn... Millions of my neighbors do not need drought tolerance in corn. Those of us that irrigate are better off storing the solar energy that falls on the corn leaf in more kernel weight rather than in larger roots. So what works best for the Eastern 2/3 of the usa with it's abundant water and occasional dry spell may not work well at all for those of us that live in the desert. And my crops do not need many of the anti-pest mechanisms that might be important in a damp climate. That energy could likewise be devoted to larger food bearing parts. And even in the eastern usa I can imagine two types of corn... One that grows well in carbonate based soils and one that grows well in granitic soils. What would be really clever for my climate would be a biannual corn... Something that could be planted after the monsoons start in late August that would survive the snowy winter and produce it's crop in the spring. In the next few days I will be planting about 10,000 corn seeds just in case I have some corn like that and just don't know about it because I have always planted in the spring instead of in the fall. Or how about a spring planted corn that grew until it got dry and then shed all it's leaves and went dormant until the fall monsoons start. Regards, Joseph
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Post by DarJones on Sept 3, 2010 11:07:01 GMT -5
I'm rolling laughing Joseph. This is about the most perfect description of drought tolerant corn that I have seen.
I don't think you have much chance of finding a corn that sheds leaves until fall monsoons. That is not in the nature of any corn I've ever grown or read about. There is a very small chance of finding a frost tolerant corn. After all, many grasses - such as ryegrass - are happy as pigs in mud at sub-freezing temps. The problem will be that corn uses C4 photosynthesis which is extremely inefficient at temps below 50 degrees F. Going on memory, the reason ryegrass is successful is that it uses C3 photosynthesis. I need to doublecheck this is correct.
Would you be interested in a GMO corn that combines genetics from Ryegrass with Maize? That would get you both C3 and C4 photosynthesis and the ability to survive freezing winters and blazing summers. I'm picturing a grass that grows in low clumps during winter and sends up bamboo like stalks in summer. The winter clumps would be C3 photosynthesis and the summer stalk would use C4. End result would be a new type of grain with phenomenal production potential.
DarJones
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