Kent Whealy: SSE = Monsanto

[spacey]

Glad you not offended Dan. Non meant. Totally respect you. Just wanted to demo how this forum has every thread jumped on with asinine comments from the likes of mnj and plantnob. Even soapbox where we are meant to be allowed to get ranty. Also very bad response from wiltingflower mod. Shame on you. This forum used to have quality info threads on everything going but now you gotta trawl through endless drivelling comments from the likes of these folk who just wanna jump on threads and go hey look at me. Point is this thread is partly about Monsanto. Everyone knows the patent issue is not just about making money from selling patent plants Dan. Wait until you are contaminated by GM and they come suing your ass for illegal growing of their "property". Geddit?

[grunt]

Spacey: I gotit, but I don't think you've kept up on your reading = the outcome of the Percey -can't think of the last name case in Manitoba, he lost the battle but won the war for the rest of us = prove your land was contaminated by GMO's, and they are the ones in the hot seat forking out the money. I don't remember if it was Monsanto, or the owner of the offending GMO's that had to pay but they are the ones in the hot seat. It has cost them bucks already for contaminated organic growers.
I just wonder how long it's going to be before some Monsanto Emplyee finds out what rocksalt feels like?= I remember!

[paquebot]

Like it or not, the PVP system was warranted to reward those who spent much of their lives working in the fields without the aid of anything more than a typewriter to record their work. They had no means to speed up a process and could only go from year to year and record the results. Those early plant breeders probably discarded 9 of 10 crosses while trying to improve a type or variety. In the end, their only reward was knowing that they improved something and gardeners nationwide were growing them. There were people in the 1920s who realized that and wanted the persons responsible for their gardens to be rewarded. That's why the act was passed.

Progress on developing better and more productive varieties did not stop with individuals in the early decades of the 1900s. The importance was such that many universities took on the projects into the 1960s. By then, major seed companies had their own programs and some still do. No longer can a lone gardener plan on spending his next 30-40 years developing better varieties while living off incidental seed sales. No longer can universities maintain a big taxpayer-funded garden vegetable program. No longer can most seed companies maintain a vegetable breeding program.

Labor is not free, nor is any material things that the laborer desires. The PVP Act was meant to reward all involved in the practice of improving upon Nature's basic plant life. It rightfully makes no exception for individual, educational, or commercial venture. There is no distinction between Luther Burbank and some peon employed by Monsanto to sweep the floors in the corporate headquarters. Both would have been involved in a similar project and both wanting to find food on their table the next day. Sorry, but I will forever defend those with bonafide claims to PVP. I spent from 1999 to 2004 to develop Paquebot Roma and have not made a cent from it. I can't imagine someone starting out to develop such a variety and then not expect to be financially rewarded. Property taxes alone would have been $10,000+ as well 10 times that as living expenses. I could have applied for a PVP but the costs would have exceeded the gains.

Monsanto doesn't have a dog in this race. They are not into garden vegetables and never have. Instead, it's been primarily the main agricultural staples which keep the world's food system working. Like it or not, they have proven what they are capable of doing if the need arises. If the world needs a super food to support one more generation on this planet before the final decision on what it can feed, I'll rest assured that Monsanto will fulfill that need while SSE will still be in another century. No other individual or company can make that claim.

Martin

[spacious]

wow sorry dan just read up on percy latest and that's amazing if courts continue to uphold contamination cases. Sorry for derailing the thread and allowing paquebot to push his pro Monsanto pro-GM poison and lies. Best ignored. Back on track everyone. Kent Whealy got screwed royally and it is essential to support him and hear his message

[PatrickW]

Martin, you just gave both sides of the argument and I mostly agree with them both. Some sort of PVP is very important for small plant breeders, but the problem with what exists now is it can only be used by companies like Monsanto, because it's not cost effective for anyone but large corporations. Not only is the registration prohibitively expensive, but also defending it. If there's ever any dispute, there's no way to settle it besides full-blown litigation, and you know who'll win in a case involving a company like Monsanto.

Regardless of all the history behind it and good intentions from great people like Burbank, if PVP is only of use to companies like Monsanto, it's not a good thing.

My very personal opinion is, that while the intentions were and still are good, PVP can never be made to work for small breeders and growers in the modern world. Even if the registration fees are cut to $0, there will still be litigation from big companies to worry about, too many loopholes, too much red tape and closed distribution channels meaning the little people will never be able to get their creations to market.

In my opinion, a better approach is one more like what was taken by Free Software people. I know a lot of people reading this are not really computer people, but understanding computers is not important to understanding these principles.

The basic idea is your create a 'parallel system' totally free of intellectual property rights, promote it and force larger companies to accept it. The way you force them to accept it is to act as consumers and demand the right to buy it. The larger companies then have to turn to the creators and operators of this parallel system for advice and support, which comes at a price.

What's really key is you have a parallel system totally free of IPR! If you give them just a small possibility for litigation, they will take it and be the only ones who can afford it. We sort of have this with OP varieties at the moment, but we are losing it slowly over time, and Svalbard is an important part of this. PVP itself it not the biggest problem, because it expires over time and only covers the variety itself but not the genes inside. Things like Depositors Agreements and Material Transfer Agreements are much bigger problems, because they last forever and and can change over time. It's very important to avoid these at all costs.

It's worked really well for Free Software, and I believe it can be made to work for food crops as well.

One of the most important factors for all of this is where the money is. Right now, we're up against the massive subsidies going into commodities like corn and other cereals, that are then used primarily for processed foods and biofuels. This makes it really hard for those of us who are trying to create 'real food'. The Free Software people have had a lot of help over the years from so-called venture capitol or VC. Private investors have found some very clever ways of using the creativity of Free Software people to create commercial products, and fund startup companies. I've worked for some of these companies in the past.

The tide is turning with food. Governments no longer want to spend massive amounts of money on food subsidies. In addition, as modern agriculture is failing, investors are starting to look for new places to invest their money. In the past few years wheat and other cereal grains have had a lot of problems, with rust diseases and natural disasters like the fires in Russia. Potatoes and tomatoes are having increasing problems with blight. There's a lot of interest now into looking at 'new' (or old) ways of doing things, and VC is becoming available.

The last I heard, canadamike was involved in such a project in Canada, and I've recently been in touch with people interested in starting such projects here.

The next step is for us consumers to demand the right to buy sensible foods!

[flowerpower]

Space, you've made it clear you don't care for this forum or the way we run it. So why do you keep signing up? And if you don't like my attitude, that's just too bad. I'm not going anywhere.

[Joseph Lofthouse]

A few years ago I stopped using computer software built by "The Corporation", and started using only open source software...

I lost some of my favorite programs, and some of the substitutes don't work the same, and for some programs I never have found a suitable substitute. But I can do everything that I want to do with open source software. And I can't envision any enticement that The Company could offer that would entice me to use it's software again.

Since I encountered the concept of land-races I have been converting my farm to open source seeds. My farm next year will be planted almost entirely with open source seeds. There are a few areas where it is hard to get open sourced seed: specifically pepo squashes like zucchini and crockneck, radishes, lettuce, and spinach.

Society and the public schooling system have instilled so much fear in me: Because if I don't use products provided by The Company then they won't work right, and I'll cause suffering in the world.

Ha!!!!

In the case of software I have found open source software to be more reliable, and less susceptible to bugs. Every land-race and/or open source seed that I have ever planted has grown as well or better than The Company's offering; Usually much better. The fear is still there, but it's not a fact based fear it's just the brainwashing I received in school.

Perhaps I'll have to do with plants what I did with software: Just make a decision that I will only use open source regardless of any sacrifice that it might take. My customers would probably forgive me if I didn't offer zucchini. There are plenty of other people that grow it.

I am currently participating in a seed swap over at Ella's Garden:
cubits.org/ellasgarden/thread/view/37488/
cubits.org/ellasgarden/db/hogwildseedswap/view/17649/
It's a huge amount of work due to the chit-chat and basically keeping track of everything manually, and it is mostly a flower site while I am mostly interested in vegetables, so the return on investment of my time isn't very good, but I'm participating because the idea has fantastic potential... I am certainly distributing a lot of land-race seed, and will be able to get some seed not from The Company, and without participating in The Company's Monetary System.

Some of the on-line gaming communities have the potential to build a separate seed economy... Prestige in the community could come from developing varieties, trialing, increasing the seed, packaging, shipping, storing, etc...

I am thrilled with the corn seed I received from homegrown goodness participants.

[grunt]

Space: I don't mind legit, even if wrong, arguments, and I don't really care if anyone else agrees with me on a given point. I have my own way of looking at the world, and no one is going to change that. I do, how ever, really dislike name calling. Martin is a valued member of this and several other gardening communities. I don't necessarily agree with all of what he writes, but I do defend his right to state his opinion, as I do you to speak yours. Name calling, achieves nothing, and indicates that you have a less than adequate handle on the language to make your own point clear. I don't say this to put you down, just to indicate to you that it might be better to hold back on your first impulse when posting. On more than one occasion I have started pounding out a pissed off interjection because someone said something that initially hit me wrong. I never post as a reaction anymore.
I'd rather be the guy who sits there with a smile on his face, making the other guy wonder what the hell I know that would make me smile at a time like this.
I sense that I am about to start babbling, so I will close out with this = we all tend to take ourselves way too seriously most of the time = it's far better to lean back, relax, and take note of how beautiful this world really is, even with all of the people we occasionally think are ....

[mnjrutherford]

Thank you Dan, very well said.

By the by Space, I'm not impressed with your attacks on anyone here.

I would; however, really like to see you legitimize yourself by making some real conversation. This time of year is prep time for new gardens and experiments. I've posted a list of the garlic I'm planting this weekend, what do you think of it?

I've got some tomato seeds that have a leg up on being disease resistant, would you like some?

I've also got cotton seeds and a few Vietnamese pepper seeds. How about the kudzu issue? What do you think of folks wanting to cultivate that? I've harvested some seed for a few folks here. Want some of them? Have you ever used it for food? I've tasted it raw and it's a bit like spinach.

Have you read some of the truly fascinating stuff about corn breeding and genetics that Joseph and DarJones have been posting? What do you think of that? I'm not very scientific minded but I've really been enthralled and inspired by the collaborative effort they have been engaged in.

[PatrickW]

Isn't this open source zucchini?

rareseeds.com/vegetables-p-z/squash/summer-squash/zucchini-squash-black-beauty.html

Anyway Joseph, if you are the kind of person who buys new computer gadgets (which you probably aren't), and you look for things that run or are compatible with open source software, you in effect provide jobs and income for people who work with open source.

The same thing goes with seeds. By promoting the idea, getting people interested in it, then they look for farms like yours. We create our own economy, and this is already happening a bit.

It's also possible to take it further, and for example create a brand associated with it, then try to market it. Something like certified organic, but more meaningful. Certified open source for example, or certified organically bred. At this point, the big corporations need to hire you to grow their food for them, or help them do it themselves.

There are lots of details to work out, and it won't all happen tomorrow, but I think it's one possible way forward.

[paquebot]

The PVP does NOT only benefit Monsanto. If you eat a Honeycrisp apple, someone paid a royalty to the University of Minnesota in order to grow the tree that it came from. U of MN has made millions of dollars from the varieties which they have developed. Bonnie-Best apple is PVP to an individual. Some pumpkins are/were PVP to individual growers. Complain as one may feel free to do, the system still works as when it was set up to do 80 years ago. Saying that it is wrong merely because one does not like a certain developer or product is entirely wrong. Producers of hybrids are accepted and allowed to benefit financially by being the sole source of the required genetics. Producers of non-hybrids put in the same amount of expense and effort but some think that they should not be rewarded. To me, that is very wrong.

For my own curiosity, I've just gone through several seed catalogs to note the PVP varieties. It was quite surprising to even find some garden peas which are protected. Knowing that SSE recognizes and respects the PVP laws, I was not surprised to find that not a one of those are listed in the yearbook.

Martin

[PatrickW]

I did not say PVP only benefits Monsanto, I said companies like Monsanto. The U of MN is hardly a small time grower. If I had created the Honeycrisp apple and gotten PVP for it, I would never had a chance of making a cent, no matter how good it was. There would have been no one for me to sell the PVP to, and no way to get it to market. Making money with PVP is a lot more than developing a good variety, it's connections and politics too.

Without knowing who any of the individuals you found are, or their stories, it's only possible to talk about them in a hypothetical way. I do know however Tom Wagner, the creator of thousands of tomatoes and potatoes many of which are very popular, has never made a cent from PVP. He told me the other day that it's not possible for someone like him to make money with PVP. I've never noticed anyone on this forum say they've made money from PVP either. I'll have to ask Tim Peters the next time I email with him, but I'm pretty sure he hasn't made any money with PVP either.

No one wants plant breeders to earn money for their creations more than me, but modern PVP laws are in my opinion not the way to go. The right people aren't being compensated for what they do.

It's also not a solution in my opinion that varieties can be controlled to the extent that an organization like the SSE would not be able to list them, it would be better if plant breeders could find another way to make money. It's a similar situation for example with music, where it's not allowed to download from the Internet but many people do it anyway, artists only earn a small percentage of the sales and the whole industry is controlled by large companies and independent artists have very little chance of making it on their own. There just has to be a better way, because the way it's now is just too big of a mess.

[Alan]

If a plant breeder wants to make money off of his or her creations and they are independent individuals with no corporate backing PVP is not an option. It's irrelevant to us.

It is possible to make money from your work though, sure one generation and other folks have your work, however if your smart and good at what you do you can recompensate yourself for your work via your own or someone elses seed company via repeating sales from folks who might have had a crop failure, lost their seed in a disaster, or simply failed to save any. If your smart and you want to do this for a living, you'll have a new project or two every year, then we are no longer looking at individual varieties as a source of permanent milk cow income, which is a joke even with protection. Copyrights only work on honest men. Period. The trick is to make a name for yourself and create a collection of sees for a particular bio-region, something that people look at as a whole as opposed to individual pieces.

I've mentioned the copyleft thing 1,000 times, one day it will come to pass. Time will tell.

Space - Your attitude here towards moderators is unacceptable, thus you have been banned.

[paquebot]

One does not have to be a large corporation to be granted a PVP. Tom Wagner could apply for PVPs on any or all of his potato and tomato creations if he so wishes. So could Alan Bishop. Howard Dill held the PVP for Dill's Atlantic Giant pumpkin for a number of years. I don't know if Johnny's Selected Seeds would be considered an large corporation but they own various PVPs. Like it or not, the PVP system is in effect for everyone from an individual gardener to the largest corporate breeder. It does not discriminate.

Kent Whealey's latest speech does not mention fear of any company other than "corporate breeders" obtaining SSE seeds and infusing them with GMO. Obtaining them is possible already through both SSE public catalog as well as their wholesale lists and the Yearbook. Since there are no corporate breeders currently known to be working on GMO vegetables, it's more of a fear of what is known to be possible rather than what is imminent. Man has the knowledge to clone all forms of life including himself but that doesn't mean that it's happening.

Martin

[Alan]

Martin,

I'm not saying I or Tom couldn't get one, what I'm saying is it's unfavorable to the type of plant breeding and system that most of us are striving for.

Also, we do have technology to do all the cloning you've mentioned, I agree, but I will guarantee you that someone has already done all of the above, just because us nobody's don't see it doesn't mean it isn't being done.

And I agree about Kens letter, it is full of what if's. My view, it's not a matter of if they do it, it's when they do it.