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Post by Deleted on Nov 29, 2011 21:43:19 GMT -5
Okay, that's what I'd thought. If that's true, then why don't seed companies develop hybrids with cherry-black pericarps and / or deep purple aleurones for better spring germination rates? In my mind, it would cut down on fungicide use (and cost) and reduce seed loss to cool soil rot. The antioxidants in the mature grain and foliage would probably make the meat and dairy animals healthier too.
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Post by oxbowfarm on Nov 30, 2011 4:38:01 GMT -5
Just a guess, but I think they don't have any inbred lines with anthocyanins and the lines are a hassle to make. They also are pretty used to the fungicide thing, its been standard practice for years so it's "in the family". Plus its something pretty different and they'd have to do a lot of marketing to get acceptance. So there would be a lot of institutional inertia on a number of different angles.
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Post by DarJones on Nov 30, 2011 10:50:19 GMT -5
Keep in mind also that the gene for red has a serious genetic drag on the mature plant when it is homozygous. In other words, you might gain something from good germination but lose much more in production.
DarJones
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Post by keen101 (Biolumo / Andrew B.) on Nov 30, 2011 16:36:01 GMT -5
I'm not sure seeds with colors germinate or survive coldness any better than ones that do not. However seedlings that are able to produce purple pigments in their foliage do seem to be able to survive in colder temperatures as the purple pigment provides sugars and can absorb some sunlight when it's too cold to reliably produce chlorophyll.
As Dar has pointed out though, most corn lines that have purple pigmented foliage often are linked with what i'm going to call the shrunken cob gene. In homozygous individuals this manifests itself as a smaller cob with more husks, and as a result is not able to be pollinated very well and does not produce many seeds. I have heard reports from some who have lines that do not have linkage to this genetic drawback, but i would assume they are rare at this point.
Also harder seeds with more starches (whether it be peas or corn) probably do survive better than the shrunken softer seeds with more sugars compared with starch.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 2, 2011 0:55:40 GMT -5
Dar, I've heard before about a double dose of the red pericarp gene reducing vigor and yield, but what about the cherry-purple pericarp found in strains derived from Kculli (like the Andean Morado varieties)? I'm probably wrong, but, as I understand it, the red and cherry-purple pericarp colors source from different chemicals (the latter is very water soluble, while the former is supposedly not). I haven't been able to find anything about cherry-purple's dominance vs recessiveness unfortunately, since so few varieties have pericarps with the color. I'd assume it's recessive though. This article talks about cherry-purple (and brown) pericarp inheritance, though I don't understand half of it.  www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1200761/pdf/466.pdf |
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Post by DarJones on Dec 2, 2011 1:45:58 GMT -5
It is controlled by the same gene complex as red. The difference with the morado varieties is that they have the "IN" gene which intensifies the color. To my knowledge, the purple colors do not have the same limitations as red. I grow Cherokee Squaw corn which is a segregating purple line.
DarJones
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Post by Deleted on Dec 2, 2011 10:43:47 GMT -5
I just found an article about the purple color in Cherokee Squaw: forums2.gardenweb.com/forums/load/cornucop/msg102032595576.html(I recognize a certain person's name. ) Isn't that purple in the aleurone? If it's dominant in the aleurone, then why are anthocyanins in the pericarp recessive? Purple and red in the foliage (and their diluted forms) are recessive too, correct? |
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Post by keen101 (Biolumo / Andrew B.) on Dec 2, 2011 11:06:37 GMT -5
Purple and red in the foliage (and their diluted forms) are recessive too, correct? From my observations with my own population of corn with purple stems and leaves i can tell you that it is a dominant trait. Two copies usually equals plants with dark stems (even in the early seedling stage) and often some dark coloring in the leaves in adulthood. Heterozygous for one green gene and one purple gene will give you a muted red color in the stems (which can be easily noticed), and homozygous green gives you green stems. Others know more about the seed colorings than i do though. s1010.photobucket.com/albums/af224/keen101/Garden%202010/?action=view¤t=SUNP0001.jpg |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 2, 2011 13:39:47 GMT -5
Keen,
has it been your experience that the ones with homozygous purple foliage tend to be less vigorous than the heterozygous and green ones? Also, why do the corn's leaves look so pale in your picture?
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Post by keen101 (Biolumo / Andrew B.) on Dec 2, 2011 15:21:19 GMT -5
Keen, has it been your experience that the ones with homozygous purple foliage tend to be less vigorous than the heterozygous and green ones? Also, why do the corn's leaves look so pale in your picture? Not really, they seem to grow just as vigorous as the green or heterozygous ones. Maybe the do grow slightly less vigorous, but if they do it's barely noticeable. The color is a little off because it was taken with an old camera. Sorry, all the colors are off in the picture. I didn't grow much corn this year, but here are a few closeups (with a much better camera) of a few that i think are homozygous for red. You can actually see that red color shows up in that area of leaf next to the stem (i think it's called the axil). I'm fairly sure the heterozygous ones dont have color in that area of the leaf at all. s1010.photobucket.com/albums/af224/keen101/Garden%202011/?action=view¤t=DSCF0543.jpg#!oZZ93QQcurrentZZhttp%3A%2F%2Fs1010.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Faf224%2Fkeen101%2FGarden%25202011%2F%3Faction%3Dview%26current%3DDSCF0543.jpg s1010.photobucket.com/albums/af224/keen101/Garden%202011/?action=view¤t=DSCF0543.jpg#!oZZ116QQcurrentZZhttp%3A%2F%2Fs1010.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Faf224%2Fkeen101%2FGarden%25202011%2F%3Faction%3Dview%26current%3DDSCF0583.jpg |
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Post by canadamike on Dec 2, 2011 17:39:58 GMT -5
I would tend to agree, from what I have seen here, on slightly less vigour on the part of the purple plants.
On the other end, dark seeds and higher protein content seem to go together very well.
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Post by Joseph Lofthouse on Dec 2, 2011 22:54:00 GMT -5
Okay, that's what I'd thought. If that's true, then why don't seed companies develop hybrids with cherry-black pericarps and / or deep purple aleurones for better spring germination rates? In my mind, it would cut down on fungicide use (and cost) and reduce seed loss to cool soil rot. The antioxidants in the mature grain and foliage would probably make the meat and dairy animals healthier too. Seed companies make more money by selling seed every year... Therefore, it is advantageous to The Company to sell seed that cannot be reliably saved and grown next year. So if they sell weak seed that can only be reliably grown after fungicides have been applied they make more money because most growers don't have access to (or are not willing to use) fungicides. My experience growing Astronomy Domine, is that people tend to not like the taste of deep purple pericarps. (That might be cultural, and it might be biological.) |
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Post by Joseph Lofthouse on Dec 2, 2011 22:58:07 GMT -5
Also harder seeds with more starches (whether it be peas or corn) probably do survive better than the shrunken softer seeds with more sugars compared with starch. My cold hardy trial this year is being planted quantitatively: I am counting the number of seeds planted, and I expect to count the number that germinate... I am also planting sweet corn and flour/flint corns in separate rows, and marking things clearly, and driving the stakes into the ground with a hammer. |
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Post by Joseph Lofthouse on Dec 2, 2011 23:12:15 GMT -5
If it's dominant in the aleurone, then why are anthocyanins in the pericarp recessive? Since the pericarp is maternal tissue, even if the embryo carries a dominant gene for colored pericarp it will not be visible in the mother. It will only show up in the children. The aleurone is triploid tissue, so there may be dosage effects going on as well. Purple and red in the foliage (and their diluted forms) are recessive too, correct? Most of the phenotypes that we care about are poly-genetic: There are many genes that control each trait... The gene to make color has to exist, and the gene to put color into certain tissues has to exist, and the gene to not consume the color in some other process has to be absent, etc... So each phenotype depends on a combination of dominant and recessive genes. I no longer believe in the simple Mendelian genetic ratios that are taught in high school. Real life genetics is more like Multivariable Calculus. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 3, 2011 0:52:41 GMT -5
Ugh, Joseph, I failed Calculus miserably in high school. XP
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