Commodity prices are soaring. Grow food.

[steev]

Having a fairly high squeem factor, the idea of raising cuddly, furry critters for chow doesn't attract me much, so no GP's or bunnies, but I look forward to getting some poultry flocks up and running. I also expect to raise pigeons, as I've found them tasty and handily portioned. When I've really gotten up to speed, I've got to raise the occasional pig and I'm eager to learn to produce a wide range of pork products; prociutto, here I come!
Fardening in Z8, I have ~10 varieties of olives coming along; they do fine if they survive the first couple years.
I've been experimenting with grains several years, both for me and my critters, looking for ones that fit my planting schedule for other things, so I've got stuff growing year round.
I intend to stay off-grid, and am working out a way to cool a root-cellar with the water from my well on its way to irrigate my crops. I think I can cool my house with much the same.
Remember that when/if the shit hits the fan, most folks are going to run away. I intend to have a large supply of trash bags and a shovel handy. That well-aerated shit is going to heat up the compost rapidly! When life gives you shit, make compost! Lemonade, hell!

[honeydew]

Nov 15, 2010 10:40:14 GMT -5 keen101 (Biolumo / Andrew B.) said:

I'm just curious to know if any of the Canadians to the north share this preparing for "Shit to Hit The Fan" type of thinking that many of the people on here seem to share from the U.S. ? If you will notice, almost everyone who commented on this thread seems to be from the U.S.

I'm wondering if maybe the Candians are less paranoid than their average U.S. counterpart, because of cultural differences, or maybe they have more faith in their economy and government.

I suppose my observation could just be coincidence, but i'd like to know for sure.

This thread has had me intrigued for a while, I just really don't know where to start....

I think that unless you are very politically astute and perhaps leaning towards believing in conspiracy theories, I suspect that many Canadians think that things are fine. I don't read a lot of mainstream news, I don't have a TV, so we are a bit out of touch with the programming news updates day to day.

My jaw usually drops when I do happen to sit down in front of a TV, it only takes a few minutes to get that incredulous feeling of "did they really just say that?"

I think it really depends. I find in my rural town it is not so bad, but we don't have access to all the glitz and glitter of the big city right in our faces. You have to be more down to business in a rural setting as well.

I do however, have a couple family members that are completely embroiled in consumption and all that. Money buys everything, I don't know that they would know what to do if the SHTF.

That said, what I really wonder is this: Is it REALLY as bad as they say it is in the States? I ask not only because it seems just so impossible to believe, but also as I don't feel it here in many ways. Absolutely food prices are on the rise, but I will address that in a bit.

Economic woes in the States, I can believe to some degree. But I have read that several communities have fallen to basically crumbling slum levels, municipalities are laying off police and firefighters in mass amounts, there is a massive illegal alien problem, people are living in sewer tunnels in Las Vegas and tens of millions are using food stamps and numbers are growing.

How can this be?

If it were for the North American Union, would Canadians be feeling the Americans' current pain?

Am I getting off topic? Okay, commodities I know little about. Food prices, however ---- WOW. They are related right? I am so thankful that we moved out of the city, and have all the space we need to produce our own food, as well as for the community.

This was a bad year in the garden, it was a cool summer, and rained A LOT. Very little would have come out of it if not for the greenhouse. Also, being sick for a month didn't help. We have a cold room with food put away that will last us partway through the winter, but this year are still significantly reliant on the grocery store - though I keep a supply to last our family through a while. Each year since we moved here, we have become more set up and have provided more of our own food. Next year will be a majority our own food. Also, we are now set up to start providing a portion of the food for our chickens (other than fresh greens and scraps)

There is only one grocery store in our little town here. Prices on some things are insane, you always have to watch for sales. Where as I used to gawk 2 -3 years ago that each bag of food averaged out to $30, now that number has crept closer to $50.

Residents, by habit drive over an hour to go "to the city" to do their shopping if they are able. Last time I was in the city grocery shopping, I was shocked at how much prices have gone up in the last couple or so months.

I am a huge supporter of local foods for many reasons.

Economically, it just makes sense. I think a large part of people's (huge generalization here folks) problems come down to one thing: ENTITLEMENT. This is no exception. We want convenience. We want out of season foods out of season. We want things that can't be grown within 1000 miles of where we live, all we need is the money to pay for it and all is good right?

From a survival POV just knowing how to if you need to is a good start. All children should be taught this skill. In my experience, a majority don't. Not everyone wants to garden and keep a year's supply of food in their pantry. Perhaps even keeping a supply that is purchased from the grocery store. Even personal emergencies happen all the time, it is unwise not to.

Yes, grow your own food. Yes, encourage others to grow their own food - even if it is just a tomato plant on their balcony. Encourage your community to support your local farmers and educate them on food issues.

[atash]

Keen, you've raised a lot of issues and I wonder if it would help to put a few generalizing perspectives on things.

Canada is a net natural resource exporter with a small population relative to its land area and petroleum and natural gas reserves. The USA is a net resource importer with a higher population density.

The USA has little to trade for its imports of both natural resources and finished products. Contrary to common perception, the USA is a net importer of food, though it gets a little complicated due to foods getting grown onshore, shipped offshore for processing, and then being shipped onshore again as finished products. Yesterday when we were driving to a farm to harvest potatoes, Tom Wagner related something he read written by Michael Pollan:

"Essentially, we have a system where wealthy farmers feed the poor crap and poor farmers feed the wealthy high-quality food."

That's not true, and it's not a plug for Michael Pollan or his ilk, but it is true that the USA produces a lot of low-cost staple crops that are relatively easy to mechanize, because labor costs are high here, while importing more labor-intensive crops like produce and especially a certain amount of what is now considered luxury produce.

This is true throughout our economy. People assume that one of our big exports is Hollywood movies. Most of the blockbusters are now made overseas on contract. It's cheaper and to be blunt they do a better job. True "Hollywood" (actually, the studios are in Burbank) movies tend to be trashy stuff, and surprisingly expensive despite being called "low budget".

Much of our remaining industry is offshoring. Microsoft has major facilities in Beijing China and Bangalore India. Boeing has job postings for places like Romania and Hungary that specifically state that US citizens will not be considered.

The net result is a huge chronic trade deficit. This deficit, like the federal budget deficit, is paid for through debasement of the $US. It is made possible by certain geopolitical facts that enforce "dollar hegemony". Nevertheless it is unsustainable, because the whole process actually undermines the geopolitical facts that sustain it.

Our military is dependent on parts and technology that are not made here and therefor over which we do not have complete control. It is also dependent, along with our whole system, on oil that is depleting.

Canadians are more optimistic because they have more oil. While their financial system is not particularly robust, it's more so than ours. Canadian banks are not going insolvent at the same rate as ours.

These facts only buy Canadians more time than we have. What they should be doing is getting ready roughly the same way for the same facts of financial breakdown and petroleum depletion.

[keen101 (Biolumo / Andrew B.)]

honeydew

Thanks for sharing!

Here in the U.S., yes AND no. Some things probably are as bad as people claim, and others are way overblown.

I have read that several communities have fallen to basically crumbling slum levels, municipalities are laying off police and firefighters in mass amounts, there is a massive illegal alien problem, people are living in sewer tunnels in Las Vegas and tens of millions are using food stamps and numbers are growing.

Well, i doubt most of that. At least here i haven't heard of police and firefighters loosing their jobs. I actually hadn't heard any had lost their jobs. There is a moderate problem with illegal aliens, but i'm not sure i would say massive. I've never heard about the sewer people of las vegas, i would honestly hope that's just a story. But, who knows. I've heard people live in the subways in New York, so i suppose it could be true.

The part about more and more people relying on food stamps is unfortunately very true, and probably the most true out of all of them. It's a problem mostly with the culture, and having a population that relies on an illusion that our money system is sustainable the way it is. That unfortunately is not true, and we are finally starting to witness it break down.

It's great to hear you have a small food storage. We also have a food storage in my home. I'm very thankful we have it. We live in the city, but it's nowhere at all like Denver. (our state capitol) We are experimenting with growing more and more food. So far Peas are my favorite, as they are so easy to grow. Beans are pretty easy too.

I am a huge supporter of local foods for many reasons.

Economically, it just makes sense. I think a large part of people's (huge generalization here folks) problems come down to one thing: ENTITLEMENT. This is no exception. We want convenience. We want out of season foods out of season. We want things that can't be grown within 1000 miles of where we live, all we need is the money to pay for it and all is good right?

From a survival POV just knowing how to if you need to is a good start. All children should be taught this skill. In my experience, a majority don't. Not everyone wants to garden and keep a year's supply of food in their pantry. Perhaps even keeping a supply that is purchased from the grocery store. Even personal emergencies happen all the time, it is unwise not to.

Yes, grow your own food. Yes, encourage others to grow their own food - even if it is just a tomato plant on their balcony. Encourage your community to support your local farmers and educate them on food issues.

Yeah, sometimes i wonder what would happen to a place like England if things got really bad in regards to gasoline/petroleum prices/shortages. England is a net importer of food, and would not be able to sustain itself if it suddenly got cut off from being able to import the food it needs. I imagine there would be riots.

I think most of this idea that the there it seems like it's leading up to a situation where the SHTF, at least here in the U.S. stems a lot from politics. It just seems like our government has gone down the drain. Our banking system sucks, and was even warned against by many of our own founding fathers. And there sometimes seems to be a major divide amongst the people too. I think another of our original presidents (i think maybe Thomas Jefferson or Abe Lincoln) said something along the lines that a nation divided cannot support itself. Whoever said that was so right. It sometimes seems like things are continuing to crumble. I sincerely hope it just paranoia. But, some day's I'm not so sure.

But i guess it's not just here in the U.S. A while back they had riots in Greece, so who knows. The day that they have massive riots here in the U.S. means that things just went horribly wrong by far. I don't like the idea of trying to isolate ourselves from everybody, and stocking up on shotgun ammo like some people have, but i do think we should be prepared to be able to support ourselves at least in terms of electricity (or other energy) and food. Just in case things collapse down to rock bottom.

[synergy]

I live in the valley suburbs of Vancouver B.C. in the agricultural land reserve. I don't have TV but I do think the majority of Canadians are saddly disillusioned consumers continueing for the most part in a business as usual manner to meet the status quo type of existance and I think it is barreling head on down the path to economic despair , breakdown and worse , environmental collapse .

I strive every day to live more sustainably in many facets of our life here.

[honeydew]

keen, thanks for your reply. You know how it is, you hear or read things, and without being able to literally go and see it for yourself, wonder if it is as they say.

I'm guessing some areas are worse than others.

Also, my bad, I meant -flood- tunnels in Las Vegas. I have seen online articles about it, with pictures of people and their little homes literally set up in these tunnels. If you are interested, check out these links about municipal layoffs in Maywood, California en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maywood,_California and Camden, NJ laying off firefighters and police www.philly.com/inquirer/local/nj/20101201_Camden_layoff_plan_targets_a_quarter_of_city_s_workforce.html

I think it's great about you having food storage too. How much of your own food do you grow now? I started gardening when I lived in the city, each year more and more grass was converted into garden space. I never got that far (meaning I moved from the city before my entire yard was dug up lol), but I could reasonably see a family providing A LOT of their own food in a city lot with intensive and creative gardening tactics.

Atash, undoubtedly you have a far greater understanding of commodity markets than I do. I appreciate your POV, it's nice to see understanding yet a straightforward approach. To anyone reading this, don't get me wrong, I also see value in addressing potential extreme issues, but to balance that out is excellent too. As my husband always says, the world has been ending since it began.

You also point out something I have not considered since I don't have a great understanding of markets and politics. Canada is resource rich. That said, and I don't think you are discounting this either, I really wonder that the powers that be in Canada and beyond have not sold us down the river as in the US.

And if that's the case, I think that your statement about Canada just having bought a bit more time makes sense. From what I can see, this is a global issue - with many factors getting us to this point.

I have tried to find more info on Canada and our financial system. What I have come to find is troubling. Apparently, unlike the US financial system that was hijacked by the bankers in 1913, Canada created the Bank of Canada in 1934 to "spend money into existence" for social programs and infrastructure. And did just fine between then and 1974, when our national debt was only $18B. Then, somehow, and this part is unclear to me, the banks convinced the politicians WITHOUT CHANGING THE LEGISLATION to borrow money from them at interest, essentially creating the same problems as in the US. It's important to note, that to my knowledge, the legislation remains unchanged - we could still be spending into existence instead of borrowing at interest. If this is not a crime against the citizens, then I don't know what is!

Synergy, I find myself agreeing with what you say - its in a nutshell how I ended up out here away from the city. I get discouraged because I know there are people with the same mindset, but I think not enough to make change.

If enough of a critical mass were to significantly incorporate local markets and shun gluttonous consumption, then perhaps. But I fear that a 'wake up call' requiring change is all that will bring this about.

[grunt]

Honeydew: They started selling us down the river when they started letting corporations outsource jobs off-shore, and giving them tax breaks to keep even token elements in the country. We (and this is a continental statement) are freaking insane to think that we can continue to live better than 75% of the world's population, and ship all of the jobs overseas at the same time.
I have no idea how much a pair of (and here I will give a hint to my age) sneakers (or as we called them here in Canada, runners) cost now, because I refuse to look at the big brand names (read = anything promoted by some overpaid athlete), but I know that it costs them less than $5 to make them and I doubt they hit the shelves for anything less than $100. And they are all made off shore. I remember when it was possible to actually find things that were stamped made in America, or made in Canada, and know that that didn't mean they were partly assembled in those locations from parts manufactured overseas. I don't buy brand names for the brand, and never have. I buy for the quality, when I can afford it, and go cheapest possible when I can't afford quality. And anymore that usually means I am buying made in anywhere but North America. Most of the larger American and Canadian corporations give me gas when I think about buying from them, because they are doing everything they can to undermine the future of our countries with their business practices. WTO and WMO deserve to be protested against. If you think they are run by governments, guess again. Take another look at the video I suggested yu watch in "Check this out" in the Soapbox forum. Then ask yourself who pays to have the tax laws written the way they are. Then tell me who runs the country. If I could post an equivalent video on Canadian politics, believe me I would. Our politicians manage to do it all in hiding, so they don't get called out like that.
I know I am going to get flack for some of this but I could care less. If you don't think I'm right, show me where I'm wrong.
Corporate Canada and America have just gotten me too pissed off.
I'm stopping there, I can feel my blood pressure going up.

[castanea]

Grunt, you are absolutely right. Corporate North America (it's happening in Mexico too) is selling out the average citizen for profit with the full complicity of our politicians.

[honeydew]

Dec 12, 2010 23:18:34 GMT -5 grunt said:

Then ask yourself who pays to have the tax laws written the way they are. Then tell me who runs the country. If I could post an equivalent video on Canadian politics, believe me I would. Our politicians manage to do it all in hiding, so they don't get called out like that.

Maybe it has something to do with our reputations of being a polite nation?

No, I think that we will likely see more overt action from our Canadian leaders as we get closer to the tipping point. Think G20 "riots" and what was done before (in preparation) and during to peaceful protesters.

I must sheepishly admit that for most of my life I was only mildly interested in politics. Then I attended an information lecture at which members of the NDP were warning people of the impending SPP/NAU that the powers that be were trying to push through. This woke me up.

Admittedly, it's a lot easier to find 'the dirt' about American problems than Canadian. I find it hard to buy that we are not floating up the same river as the US.

I have no words to express my sheer disbelief as to the pickle we have gotten ourselves into. I need to look no further than just one food related public health issue (the public non-consensual safety testing of GM foods) to see that the corporations run the gov't, not the other way around.

So, in my very limited view of things, it's easy to fathom that all markets are being controlled by the corporations or small powerful (non-elected) groups of one sort or another. This is no accident.

Okay...on a lighter note. Cuz this is really heavy. I wanted to comment on some interesting points that were brought up earlier in this thread that have more relevance to homesteading and self sufficiency, but it's late. Another day.

[grunt]

Every once in a while, I just have to froth at the mouth a bit. I much prefer to keep it light and cheery.
On a slightly personal historical note, I was a back to the lander before there were back to the landers, in the very late 50's and extremely early 60's. Picture someone with hair not quite to his shoulders in 1960-62, and dressed in extremely dirty badly tanned buckskins living in caves and leanto's, eating what ever he could shoot. Sorta Jeremiah Johnson with no horse. I out lived it, and went back to school so I could partake of the college life and be somebody = I outlived that too, got intelligent, and became a lightkeeper for 28 years.
I have since stopped being a useful member of society, and retired. They pay me to breath, because I survived the system long enough. Now I get paid so I can play in my own sandbox.

[Alan]

www.zerohedge.com/article/cftc-commissioner-bart-chilton-reveals-one-trader-controls-40-silver-market-silver-holdings-

www.marketwatch.com/story/royal-bank-of-canada-loses-triple-a-rating-2010-12-13

www.npr.org/2010/12/10/131969606/gm-accelerates-toward-chinese-business-plug-ins?ps=rs


Heres some good "doomy" news for you all.

I know here in our small town the divide is very visable, about equally split between those preparing for shit to hit the fan and those who think life will go on as normal. Those preparing for shit to hit the fan though are not very prepared, growing little of their own food, and if they are growing food they are not saving seeds or are not raising crops for their animals, the impetetus instead seems to be ammo and bunkers. Those who think life will go on as usual are so entwined in consumerism they wouldn't know what happened or was happening until they got a message on their blakberry or iphone to let them know how bad their ass should hurt.

Canadians, another variable you might think about if things get bad, is the number of Americans that might migrate to the great white north or who already are.

I know of a group of 10 guys who just left to head your direction, good people, but imagine the wave that could possibly be coming in the next 12-24 months, a lot of which will be unprepared drainers of resources.

[honeydew]

Dec 13, 2010 1:57:06 GMT -5 grunt said:

Every once in a while, I just have to froth at the mouth a bit. I much prefer to keep it light and cheery.
On a slightly personal historical note, I was a back to the lander before there were back to the landers, in the very late 50's and extremely early 60's. Picture someone with hair not quite to his shoulders in 1960-62, and dressed in extremely dirty badly tanned buckskins living in caves and leanto's, eating what ever he could shoot. Sorta Jeremiah Johnson with no horse. I out lived it, and went back to school so I could partake of the college life and be somebody = I outlived that too, got intelligent, and became a lightkeeper for 28 years.
I have since stopped being a useful member of society, and retired. They pay me to breath, because I survived the system long enough. Now I get paid so I can play in my own sandbox.

I really don't mind Grunt if you want to discuss such issues....it's not many Canadians that I know that even are aware of such things.

I'm glad to be finally out of the city, as a child my mother remarried, and dragged my stepfather out of the mountains, though we spent a lot of recreational time in the rocky mountains and foothills on the Alberta side for a good portion of my formative years. We moved out to an acreage shortly before I left home, and I lived in large cities for school and work and grew very sick (physically and mentally) of the pollution, crowds and lifestyle. Does this make me a typical 'back to the lander' or what else?

Americans coming here? Okay, I guess we will have to see how that one goes. I'm guessing there will be pocket areas that will see more of this than others.

[atash]

Having a fairly high squeem factor, the idea of raising cuddly, furry critters for chow doesn't attract me much

Try being a full-blown vegetarian. Funny thing is I'm not a typical "animal lover"--I simply don't hate them and have an obsessive tendency towards guilt and a need to please ("anxious attachment" is the technical name for it). Long sad story. I've mostly fixed the underlying problem through "contemplative exercises" that have healed a lot of old wounds.

But my wife's boss invited us to dinner the other day and convincing myself that I can do just about anything I put my mind to I decided to be low key and go with the flow. Not a single vegetarian item on the menu. Even the salads contained critter parts. I ate a fish for the first time in probably a generation.

And regretted it. Not so much for guilt (maybe a little though...) for eating a fellow creature whereas at least fish aren't cuddly and furry, as to the consequences of the bad karma.

It's a trendy, touristy place, which almost guarantees the food is horrible. Ordered the relatively cheapest entree (~$15) on the pricey menu trying to go easy on the host's pocketbook. The cod badly overcooked to the point of being dry and leathery. The chips over-fried until hard. Not crispy, hard and totally dried out. Everything dripping with grease too.

I had to eat enough to make a good impression and ended up with a whopper of a belly ache. This was my punishment for the bad karma I think.

Anyway...

My idea is that you raise crops and eat stuff that predates them. Otherwise, the vegetarian humans starve too. There are plenty of hunters within my circle of influence to do the dirty work. I feel bad for the deer but such is the natural order of things. Alone and afraid in a world I never made.

I don't raise food for livestock. I take very seriously the idea that who can live lower on the food chain will outnumber those who live higher.

I am often asked "but what about protein?!" Actually, that comes from plants, not animals. Livestock get it from what you feed them. Even grass-fed cattle are concentrating the protein in the grass. Leaf proteins interestingly tend to be surprisingly well-balanced, just scarce.

Seed proteins are more concentrated but tend to be lopsided. So you combine the proteins from cereals with the proteins of beans, lentils, and pulses to complement each other.

Grunt, this will touch on what you were saying, in just a bit:

Some of you might remember a gal active in the early 1970s name of Frances Moore-Lappé, who publicized and made popular the concept of complementary proteins. She had several books out, including "Diet for a Small Planet", and remains a principal of the Small Planet Institute:

www.smallplanet.org/

Not an endorsement; she's another one of Pollan's ilk. But it's important to understand why she received her 15 minutes of fame...

Imagine people who live very HIGH on the food chain. People who must be protected from ever having to do any hard, tedious, or unpleasant physical labor, who must never know real hunger or want, who probably actually have jobs but only active doing what they really want to do, activities that are satisfying to their sense of who they are.

People who are "self-actualized" in Abraham Maslow's pyramid of needs.

People who make a living deciding how to manage the rest of us, so as to optimize our productivity for their benefit. Not just the think-tank people who come up with the policies, but also their bosses who fund them.

People who think of the rest of us as being human livestock.

The objectives of "Diet for a Small Planet" were to

* encourage the rest of us to adopt an essentially vegetarian diet that requires less land and energy (peak oil) to support... (by the way, Moore-Lappé is NOT a vegetarian herself!)
* and taking the savings to subsidize offshored 3rd-world labor pools (globalization)

Things did not go quite as planned. Asia ended up being were most production was offshored to, because Latin America and Africa, which were the intended destinations, are capital-depleting. The very attributes that decide how easy the livestock are to control and manipulate also determine how productive they are.

You might have noticed that some of the same thing were going on in the mid-1970s as are going on today:

* discussions of global climate change; back in the 1970s, both "fire" and "ice" were discussed, but because of a string of brutal winters in the northeastern USA they decided to give more weight to "ice" back then. The pressure to link climate change to fuel consumption, plus the serendipitous string of El Nino events, resulting in "global warming" getting the publicity more recently. The whole idea was the brainchild of the late Robert Heilbrunner.

* wars in the Middle East. In between was a period of seeming detente, which was more of a ruse to buy time.

* terrorism. Back then it was the Bader-Meinhoff gang (who's surviving members have done astonishingly well in politics seemingly without any significant controversy despite a photo of Jaschke Fischer kicking a wounded police officer on the ground!...rewards for services rendered.... ), the Symbionese Liberation Army, Carlos the Jackal, etc.

* Gold was in a bull market. Not so much then as now, but it did jump rather suddenly from $35/oz to over $200. Then as now there were efforts behind the scenes to control it, but the London Gold Pool had just broken down when the French defected by order of de Gaulle, causing the Bundesbank to panic (they had a huge trade surplus) and follow suit.

* a lot of people like Grunt getting the idea it might be a good time to get the heck out of Dodge.

The big picture then was the same as it is now: somewhere around 1971-1974, the USA hit peak domestic petroleum production. Various schemes including a deal Kissinger negotiated with the House of Saud back in 1974 helped put off the day of reckoning, but now the issue has escalated to GLOBAL peak oil.

So the folks who headed for the hills in the 1970s or earlier jumped the gun. Though they may very well have benefitted from a healthy natural lifestyle if nothing else.

Real preparation will take some thinking that is still outside-the-box. But that is a discussion for another time.

[Alan]

www.businessinsider.com/detroit-garbage-pickup-bankruptcy-2010-12



Good post Atash!

Me, I had issues with harvesting animals for meat when I was a kid, but I've come to deal with that very succiently in the past several years.

I say a prayer of sorts: God has charged every man with both the care of his flock as well as the slaughter thereof.

I also have a specific place, one specific place, my Kiva, which is the only place on the farm (outside of hunting) where is spill the blood of my livestock.

To each his own.

Soon I will write a post about Coturnix quail and why I'm leaning towards them as the ultimate survival animal.

[silverseeds]

Dec 13, 2010 16:07:59 GMT -5 Alan said:

Soon I will write a post about Coturnix quail and why I'm leaning towards them as the ultimate survival animal.

Im very interested in what you have to say in this regard.

I am leaning to mirror or israeli carp both selections of common caro myself. You do of course need water, but you can recirculate the same water if you do it right. Sponge or low tech sand filters can be made for the biological aspect, and charcoal or carbon for the chemical. which the charcoal is then great for the garden.

These fish are easy to breed, they can handle high stocking densities IF your keeping their water in line. Being omnivores you can feed them anything when they are of size, although young they are pickier. So meal worms, or worms could be raised for them, greens and such like a chicken would eat, sprouts or grains work well to. pretty much anything, table scraps to. also if they are outside, in a tank or pond, its REAL easy to bloom algae and you dont have to feed them at all at this point.

they also grow very fast, and convert food to meat very efficiently. Perhaps as important, they KEEP growing, and become better breeders over time as well I understand. So if you had a pond, and had them living totally on their own, they would simply keep growing up into 60 pounds plus given enough time. Full table size in a year.

they also can deal with harsh environs low oxygen, and other water issues that would wipe out other fish.

raised in pure water they can be a tasty fish to, they have a stigma in the states, but this is due to them rooting around in the mud and the like, with a poor diet in general.

If you had a pond raising them could be as easy as stocking them. If ultimate output was a concern, you could go VERY low tech or as high tech as you can afford, with supplemental feeding and raise an extreme amount of quality meat in a small place, with as much effort as your willing to give. Few animals can raise themselves in this way. heck even in tanks it can be close to being passive at low stocking densities.

heres the clincher for me though, I want birds, but I live in town for now. I cant have birds, atleast not noisy ones. technically I couldnt have quiet ones wither I believe, but would likely get away with it.

these carp though, I have indoors, and once I can build a good sand filter, I have enough tank space, I could grow them indoors indefinitely if need be. So Id certainly consider it a contender for the ultimate survival animal. especially if you all ready have a little pond.

ducks work great with them in a pond system to, as they fertilize the water, it blooms algae which is fish food. Lots of other variables to consider, but its certainly high on the list.......

The mirror carp were selected by monks in europe for superior growth, better meat distribution, as well as easier processing. (less scales) My understanding is th israeli carp which is often found used interchangeably with mirror carp was further selected in israel FROM mirror carp, for even better growth, and meat distribution, along with better bone distribution, and less disease issues. not that carp suffer much disease, but in systems where stocking density can be important, thats a good thing.

Once mine are breeding, i should be able to send these to people, I have the israeli strain. mine were raised as a bait fish out of ohio actually. So likely available to many here just used for different things.....