Guar Bean or Cluster Bean

[wildseed57]

I was doing some reading about this legume, its mainly grown in India and is the source of guar gum. It is usually cooked up with a curry sauce to hide the slight bitter taste it has. From what I've read its usually planted in July and harvested in October, so I'm wondering if its day light time sensitive where it needs to have short days to develop or are those months part of the wet season, as they also require plenty of water while growing? One virtue of eating it is it can drop your cholesterol along with a few other healthy things.
seeds of India mentions that it can be eaten raw, but I could not verify if it could or not, I guess that if you can eat it cooked you could also eat it raw so long as you can get pass the bitterness.
So I'm wondering if any body has grown it and just what does it taste like and how strong is the bitterness?
George W.

[blueadzuki]

I have a few growing in a pot on my patio. I'll get back to you at the end of the season.

[wildseed57]

Thanks , I read that they used them as a green ground cover and feed to live stock also which is understandable, but then barn yard animals will eat stuff that might give us a gastric attack and then some. I Hope they are not as bitter as some of the bitter melons I have tried.

[blueadzuki]

Well I seem to recall that at least one of the seeds that went into the pot was dark dark purple. I think I'll have to make a point of not eating that one at all (If I can figure out which one it was); if ordinary guar beans are bitter, I would imagine a still darker seeded strain (read dark seed =(usually) higher concentration of other compounds including distasteful ones) will be all but inedible.

I doubt they will be as bitter (except the purple one maybe) as the bitter melons, but that's only becuse I have a hard time imagining anything more bitter than a bitter melon, short of the old time health tonic of Iron, Quinine and Strychnine!

Actually if you are looking for a Indian forb that you can split between you and your animals, you might find Horse Gram, Macrotyloma uniflorum (formerly Dolichos biflorus) a more useful plant. I have one of those growing as well (I stuck beans in everywhere) and from waht I understand while a little coarse on texture, it is supposedly much more palatable.

[1066]

I'll be following this thread as I have some Cluster Bean seeds (bought in India). I haven't grown them this year, as I'm short on space. And I'm wondering of I did sow some now whether or not I'll be too late in the season

[wildseed57]

I know what you mean about the bitterness in the bitter melon I ate some when I was in Thailand while on R&R and can say that I have eaten far better things as even when prepaired right the taste reminds me of Quinine. I will give the Horse Gram a thought or two as it sounds interesting. Right now I have been looking for a soy replacement that is as good as soy for protein, the closer the better to a whole protein as possible, I know some of the lentals, gram beans, and chickpeas are pretty good. One of the things that caught my eye was a photo where the pods grew up right on the plant and it reminded me of a Okra plant for some reason. You were saying that the dark colored beans are less edible than the lighter ones ? I wonder if there are varieties or hybrids that are light colored and have less bitterness? I have often thought about some of the legumes and how they are used by people for food like the Lab Lab bean which can be toxic. I wonder if some types of the Guar bean is like that, but then again when it is made into guar gum no mention is made about the taste of guar gum being better.
George W.

[blueadzuki]

Jun 10, 2011 10:00:12 GMT -5 wildseed57 said:

I know what you mean about the bitterness in the bitter melon I ate some when I was in Thailand while on R&R and can say that I have eaten far better things as even when prepaired right the taste reminds me of Quinine. I will give the Horse Gram a thought or two as it sounds interesting. Right now I have been looking for a soy replacement that is as good as soy for protein, the closer the better to a whole protein as possible, I know some of the lentals, gram beans, and chickpeas are pretty good. One of the things that caught my eye was a photo where the pods grew up right on the plant and it reminded me of a Okra plant for some reason. You were saying that the dark colored beans are less edible than the lighter ones ? I wonder if there are varieties or hybrids that are light colored and have less bitterness? I have often thought about some of the legumes and how they are used by people for food like the Lab Lab bean which can be toxic. I wonder if some types of the Guar bean is like that, but then again when it is made into guar gum no mention is made about the taste of guar gum being better.
George W.

That the pods remind you of okra is not entirely suprising; any plant that bears the species name tetragonolobus is going to have pods like that (tetragonolubus translates out roughly as "four sails" or "four ridges"). Though of course Okra is on a base 6 pod plan, not a base 4.
With guar you have one advantage, most of the beans are lighter. The Purple one I got was the exception, not the rule. average seed color is somewhere between tan and grey.
I've heard people say that wing bean seeds are rougly equivalent to soy in protein, but you are going to run into the same problem of really really bitter (roasted, they are sometimes used a a coffee substitute) with the added catch that for these average color is well into the deep brown, so youd have to go throgh a LOT of seed to get enough light tan ones to make a go of it (since most of the wingbean seed sold here is for consuption of green pods, segregating out for the paler seed you'd want if you want to eat them mature is not really any seed companies priority) Plus most types are too long season to grow well much north of the Keys. Ive also heard people say that the seed the red sandalwood (Adenanthera Pavonia) is soybean like, but that it one I really encourage you to not follow up on; in my experiance, leguminous seed that is bright scarlet red does not bode well with regards to edibility; that shade usually means "most poisionous of the poisonous" (think coral bean, rosary pea, ladybug seed etc.) Plus once again you have somethign not adapted to above the subtopics, and that one is a tree! (well shrubby tree).
Ive actually got Lablab as growing as well. Well a Lablab (the chipunks were as cruel to those as most of my other legumes). Based on what I have seen in the markets, I'd say the rule of thumb with those is to avoid the types with seeds that are black or mottled for eating as mature seed (unless you want to spend a month or two leaching them). The dead white kind that are sold in Indian and Chinese supermarkets are probably as safe as the lima beans often substituted for them, you'd want to cook the thoroughly and avoid them if you have an allergy, but other than that you'd probably be alright If you have a supermarket of the above and want to try those, ask for a bag of unsplit Van dal and then check which one they give you (the right one will have the Lablab's charateristic "crest" like hilum on each seed (one thing though the white ones make flat green plants, so no pretty purple leaves and pods.)
Guar Gum doesn't have the tast becuse it isn't part of that part of the seed. the gum is in a sort of undercoat on the seed, a kind of rubbery jacket of endosperm that sits around the actual seed cotyledons and embryo. Unilike on most legumes the cotyledons, of guar do not absorb all of the endosperm by the time the seed is mature so it's still there. The seed absorbs it as it germinates and it falls off a little later than the coat. (another reason it like short rains so much, if the exposed endosperm dries down again, it can get so hard it will pinch the growing top of the seedling off during growth; effectively killing the plant.). It's hardly the only legume with the setup, honey locus, carob, and scholar tree all have the same deal, along with some of the acaicias especially Acacia senegal (source of Gum Arabic). when they process the seed for gum they peel the endosperm away from both coat and embryo, so no bitterness. Plus they probably process the bejezzus out of it. (if you are planning to do the same thing, bear in mind guar beans are each about the size of a lentil.)

[steev]

In Guatemala there is a variety of what seemed to be bitter melon, fruit and seed shapes, which was not noticeably bitter to me; it was commonly scrambled into eggs, with onion, very tasty.

In El Salvador, I found the flowers of coral tree used as a soporific tisane; they are also srambled with eggs, very tasty.

[wildseed57]

I won't be processing the beans for guar gum as I'm more interested just using the fresh pods, but not if they are going to be bitter, I won't be growing any this season but maybe next year. I'll pass on any lab lab beans I just don't trust them. I have seen corral beans they are pretty , but if you eat any you better grab a rosary and start praying. I have thought about growing wing beans, but they have a short day requirement also just to get them to set enough pods I would need a longer warm fall than what I have. I do have a garden pea that is supposed to have a protein of 34% with a high mineral content, but I can't say if that statement is true or not the seeds came from the USDA Grin Seed Bank, but they are known to be wrong at times.
I think I might try growing the Horse Gram I'll have to run down the seeds, I will probably have to either get then from a Internet seed source or try finding the seeds, in the main city a 70 plus mile drive and no guarantee that I will find them there. I know that the Health food store here does not carry them, but they carry several types of the standard dry beans, a few lentils and some dried peas and that's about it. Around here if you talk about Asian vegetables you might as well talk about the moon the same goes for just about anything different.
George W.

[blueadzuki]

Steev, I can't be sure as I was not there, but that sounds a lot more like the long form of Caiga or Achocha, Cyclanthera pedata. Visually that shares a lot in common with the bitter melon (not all forms have the spines expected by those whose only experiance with this species is the Lady's slipper form sold by the seed companies up there). Like the hollow center and similar shaped seeds. In fact it used to be classified in the same genus Mormordica. But Ciga tastes much better.
Wild, I sympathize with you take on Lablabs. To be honest, I get the same cringey tingle whenever someone suggests me eating grasspea seeds (or for that matter, whenever I hear anyone else suggest eating them themselves). I wish I could simply wave my magic greenwand and send you some horse gram seeds but what I planted was my whole supply (when you seed mostly comes from culls from other products you starting supply tends to be rather low). I think Baker Creek may have it (or not) I know Banana Tree carries it (you need to use the Dolichos scientific name to find it there. but with thier $15 seed minimum and the larger number of things they are usually out of making a working list with them can be hard. I also think I may have seen seed at some of the sites that specialize in flowers; a lot of people think horse gram's yellow blooms are pretty. Oh wait I found a seed supplier on ebay, compare.ebay.com/like/360355394527?var=lv<yp=AllFixedPriceItemTypes&var=sbar. I think I've bought from this guy before, I seem to recall he is trsutable.

[wildseed57]

Thanks for the info, I may scratch up some change and get some, as there are a couple of other plant species that I like also. Yah somethings just are not meant to be eaten, Back here in the Ozarks some people claim that you can eat a variety of Mushroom that is also known to be quite toxic, not for me thank you.
George W.

[steev]

Thanks for the info on Cyclanthera, not the sort of information I could get at the time and place.

I am reminded of once in Guatemala, when a friend thought he had intestinal boarders, so we went to the farmacia to shop. I was able to tell the clerk more or less what was needed, so he brought out the several products he had. He was very impressed when I examined the packages and chose one, asking whether I was a doctor. No, and I couldn't even read much Spanish, but was able to do it from the Latin names of the parasites treated, being a zoologist, by training.

[castanea]

Jun 10, 2011 20:00:28 GMT -5 steev said:

In Guatemala there is a variety of what seemed to be bitter melon, fruit and seed shapes, which was not noticeably bitter to me; it was commonly scrambled into eggs, with onion, very tasty.

In El Salvador, I found the flowers of coral tree used as a soporific tisane; they are also srambled with eggs, very tasty.

While some varieties of bitter melon are certainly more bitter than others, you can prepare them in ways to reduce the bitterness and it is common in parts of central America and Asia to mix them with eggs after reducing the bitterness.

[steev]

While soaking in salted water reduces bitterness in Momordica, as it does in cardoon and milk thistle, these fruits in Guatemala were not bitter when cooked directly, as I did once I'd been introduced to them; so I think blueadzuki hit the nail squarely. I'd always assumed that bitter melon had been introduced from Asia centuries ago and the local variety had the bitter bred out.

[blueadzuki]

Update. While out on my patio today I looked at the pot where my Guars are planted, and at least one of them is flowering (this is partiucalry suprising, in that I never got aroudn to repotting the guars, with the consequence that they are all only about 3-4 inches tall. Tere a picture of a flower spike (obviosly not mine) here scsphotogallery.tamu.edu/gallery/OtherCropsPhotoGallery/Guar00_1

I'm actually rather relieved for this closeup, as the flower I saw on mine looked a little odd in construction (compared to the "standard" pea flower) so it though it was malformed and likely non-functional. But these flowers have the same odd shape (in particualar, the unfused keel that opens out like wings). Mine are a lot pinker than this, and of course the spike is a lot shorter, but otherwise it's a pretty close match. Maybe the flowering one is the "purple" seed I planted, darker seed often equals brigter flowers.

(Added next day) Now almost all of them have flower buds. Oddly it looks like all of the flowers are single. Maybe guar comes in single flowered and panicle flowered strains.