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Post by Joseph Lofthouse on Oct 7, 2013 10:38:42 GMT -5
I am growing true garlic seed as a means of food security because I think that seeds are a more reliable growing method than cloning. I can store garlic seeds for years, so that even if every bulb is lost to disease, pests, or the environment, I can still regenerate the crop from stored seeds. I really really dislike growing clones. Most of my fruit trees were grown from seedlings. I routinely regenerate my potato patch from seedlings. I am growing garlic seed because it is the only way to localize garlic to my garden. I am working on converting every crop that I grow to a localized landrace. Garlic is one of the more challenging crops to do this with. I really desire the tremendous genetic diversity that is available by growing garlic from seeds. It would sure save on labor and expense if I could plant garlic seeds in the spring, and harvest a decent crop by fall. I can do that with onions which have approximately the same growth habits and genome. I am growing true garlic seed because I desire the accolades that would accompany the successful completion of an arduous task. I thrive on difficult challenges, and especially on difficult challenges which are undertaken as a community. I love collaborative efforts. I love sharing germplasm. I am growing true garlic seed because removing bulbils is relaxing and meditative to me: A great stress relieving activity to sooth my overactive mind during tumultuous times. I love having a daydream-fantasy to spend time on rather than getting caught up in current events. I am growing true garlic seed as a legacy that I can leave to the world: A fertile localized garlic landrace in which the negative effects of millenniums of cloning have been undone. nicollas: Thanks for the link to Allium Crop Science. It said something I have never read before which I think may be important. "In the winter, all fertile clones produced horizontal leaves with strong winter-hardiness, all were late-maturity and all had purple or violet anthers...". Selecting for horizontal leaves during the winter is something that would be trivial to do in my garden. In any case, it's something to pay attention to. It'd be nice if reducing virus load was a side-effect of this effort, but since I can't see viruses I don't think about eliminating them. Although... I have quarantined my garden from importing new garlic bulbs. |
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Post by nicollas on Oct 7, 2013 11:39:51 GMT -5
Thanks Joseph for the comprehensive answer. That makes a lot of sense.
I'm on the other side of the spectrum, i love all that is vegetatively propagated. Maybe because it is easier to grow and outcompete weeds and slugs, that i havent got any greenhouse at this time, and that a lot of cultivars can be grow without bothering for cross pollination.
But some time ago i've become aware of similar thinking as yours with the work of Tom Wagner with potatoes. If i understood correctly his point (i cant found the message anymore), is that he has not the technology to propagate virus-free stock, so he's doing a continual breeding process to have always "fresh" cultivars. I think a similar strategy should be done with potato onions, to clear stock of viruses and keep flowering habits in the line. But i prefer to grow them vegetatively. I've read from Kelly that his Mountain Green has now 10 years of vegetative propagation, and that a third of its plant still flowering. I think i'll go with something like that : breeding for fun as it seems so rewarding with potato onions, and maybe renew/create cultivars each 7-10 years to keep the flowering ability. Hope i'll have fun with garlic too, but when i'll be more experienced !
(Thanks for all the good work, its a real pleasure to read all of your experiments (go go perennial watermelons !). Very inspiring.)
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Post by billw on Oct 7, 2013 11:54:51 GMT -5
You don't need to choose one method of propagation or the other: they complement. Constantly doing small-scale growing from seed to search for promising new varieties and then propagating those vegetatively, for as long as they yield well, maximizes your efforts. The focus that so many people have on maintaining heirlooms is very interesting to me. I'd rather have a variety that I bred myself than an heirloom and I'd much rather have a crop that produces a variety of types that are new and surprising every year. But, I am not a farmer, so I don't particularly require predictability. I've managed to resist adding garlic breeding to my ever-expanding list of projects so far, but I finally broke down this year. I've acquired some of the known seeding varieties to try out next year. I have no idea what to expect - much of what I've read suggests that I don't have enough heat to get seed. Of course, I would rarely lose money betting against what I have read about growing just about anything. If it is supposed to be easy, it is hard. If it is supposed to be hard, it is easy.  |
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Post by blueadzuki on Oct 7, 2013 14:03:17 GMT -5
The focus that so many people have on maintaining heirlooms is very interesting to me. I'd rather have a variety that I bred myself than an heirloom and I'd much rather have a crop that produces a variety of types that are new and surprising every year. But, I am not a farmer, so I don't particularly require predictability. And that is the big difference. Wide diversity gives you increased stability, but the tradeoff is a bit of the optimal yield. It's the flipside of the diversity benefit; just as upping the gene base lessens the chances of every plant failing or underperforming resulting in little or no crop, it also lessens the chances of every plant succeeding or overperfoming, resulting in the maximum possible crop. If you are in it mostly for the fun, or your crop base is secure enough that having a crop that isn't the absolute total maximum possible bumper is OK, there's no problem. But if you are a marginal hardscrabble farmer whose land is so poor that anything less than a bumper crop doesn't give you enough yield to live on, the temptation to skew your population to whichever plants do the absolute best for you is probably pretty strong. Or why I hate it when people say, "maximum diversity is always the best diversity; you have to make sure every gene combination stays in the pool no matter what. In any diverse population there are going to be some losers that just don't work no matter what, fighting to keep them there is probably going to be a lot of work and unless you live in an area like mine (where the year to year weather is so erratic that anything that worked last year is pretty much guaranteed to NOT work the next year) probably not worth it. |
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Post by Joseph Lofthouse on Oct 16, 2013 22:39:52 GMT -5
I received a gift in the mail yesterday. Thank you. True Garlic Seed:  |
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Post by billw on Oct 16, 2013 23:24:33 GMT -5
I got a similar package. Very exciting!
We have been busy eating a lot of garlic because all of our old standbys will be replaced with Ivan's and a few other seeding varieties next year.
Out with the old, in with the new. Time to make some more Habanero pickled garlic.
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Post by Joseph Lofthouse on Oct 17, 2013 0:03:34 GMT -5
...We have been busy eating a lot of garlic because all of our old standbys will be replaced with Ivan's and a few other seeding varieties next year. Out with the old, in with the new... BillW: Thanks for the inspiration. I'll join you in that journey. I've got perhaps a bushel of seed garlic sitting around in little piles here and there all over the house, barn, and truck. I'll only replant those that are known to produce true seed (at least sometimes in some gardens). I made the decision a few years ago to not grow sterile potatoes. Today I commit to the decision to not grow sterile garlics. Hmmm. Think I'll dehydrate the seed garlic. Plenty of time later to figure out how to grind it into powder. |
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Post by raymondo on Oct 17, 2013 1:02:41 GMT -5
Impressive lot of seed. I will be trying agin this year for some TGS. I have four varieties and all put up scapes, three at the same time and one much later. I'll move a few to a quiet garden spot where they can do their thing undisturbed, except when I go about removing bulbils!
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Post by steev on Oct 17, 2013 1:31:37 GMT -5
Very intere*ting; the 6 *ee* g^rlic* Joe*ph *ent me l**t ye*r *re coming on, *o I'm expecting *n inttere*ting crop, thi* ye*r.
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Post by hortusbrambonii on Oct 17, 2013 2:43:34 GMT -5
Impressive stuff here. I always thought that garlic was beyond hope for non-vegetative reproduction. Creating a fertile seed-race og garlic would indeed be a legacy to give humanity, a reversal of things going on for hundredths, maybe thousands of years for some races... And sexual reproduction will be much better for new races to be able to adapt if tumultuous times are ahead for planet Earth...
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Post by meganp on Oct 17, 2013 16:26:06 GMT -5
I'm eager to hear about everyone's progress getting their seeds to germinate. I'll be following Ted Meredith's instructions and Ivan has cautioned me that that germination won't be easy so will be over the moon if any of my seeds make it!
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Post by Joseph Lofthouse on Oct 17, 2013 17:18:46 GMT -5
A few years ago I was trying to germinate a species of South American cactus that needs cold stratification before it will germinate... I tried all sorts of refrigerator and freezer tricks... They didn't work. So I planted them directly into the ground in mid-February and forgot about them. They germinated well. I am going to take the same approach with the garlic seeds. Plant them directly into a weed-seed free spot in the yard and forget about them till spring. That will mean planting them into some sort of potting soil because every other type of soil around here is filled with weed seed. I figure that I'll space the plantings a month or so apart all winter long, snow-cover permitting.
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Post by 12540dumont on Oct 17, 2013 18:01:16 GMT -5
Joseph, that type of strat worked well for me as well. I had some cactus seed (Saguaro) in a pot in the sprout house for 6 months. Nothing! It had been both in the fridge and freezer, finally I threw the pot into the recycle soil bucket disgusted and 6 weeks later I had a saguaro sprout!
I've been trying this technique for all kinds of things.
I wish you the very best regarding the TGS!
Your garlic was the absolute best I have ever grown. I still get e-mails from my CSA customers asking if there's anymore!
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Post by richardw on Oct 18, 2013 2:56:09 GMT -5
Ive got some of my TGS in a 1% solution of household bleach at the moment and will place it in a moist paper towel then inside a plastic bag,4 weeks in the refrigerator and then sow in pots, one good aspect about having the seed coming from a northern hemisphere autumn to the southern hemisphere is the seed comes out from the refrigerator straight into early summer,but on the other hand it doesn't leave much time to form a round with a protective sheath,i'm going to have to grow them in pots so i can bring them inside the tunnlehouse as the days cool in March.
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Post by hortusbrambonii on Nov 1, 2013 11:06:18 GMT -5
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