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Post by mjc on Jun 21, 2017 2:27:10 GMT -5
From the 2015 seed harvest we had 99 seeds that were from unidentified parentage. On 2/6/16, I dry stored those seeds in a refrigerator without bleach treatment. On 4/19/16, I removed the seeds from the refrigerator and direct seeded them into a garden area of poor soil where alliums had never previously been planted. Only two seeds germinated, but produced fairly vigorous plants. Beginning this spring, I noticed that 7 more seeds had germinated. Germination had occurred approximately a year after planting. Alliums can and do last for some time, in the soil and can take several years to germinate. Allium tricoccum can take 3 or more years to germinate. The more commonly grown from seed alliums, like onions, have been, probably unintentionally, selected over the centuries for 'fast' germination.
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Post by joeyd on Jun 21, 2017 11:31:28 GMT -5
Hey everyone, new to the forum. First year growing garlic; I found this forum after looking into true garlic seed and finding Mr. Lofthouse's website. I am only growing one variety, Sinnamahone. It a rocambole type from Baker Creek seeds. They named this variety, so I don't know what other variety it is probably identical to. I did leave about forty smaller cloves in the corner of my garden to flower, but all being the same clone, I think my chances for this year are low. Next year I am going to plant several more varieties that are likely to give seeds.
I have a question for all of you who are trying to get your TGS seeds to germinate. Has anyone tried using gibberellic acid? It is easy to get and is the main plant hormone that breaks seed dormancy. I've used it in a plant physiology class, and at home to get 10 year old pepper seeds to germinate. So, it my be worth a try.
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Post by mjc on Jun 21, 2017 12:09:43 GMT -5
Generally, GA isn't needed. Proper prep and stratification should go a long way to improving germination rates. I tend to direct sow in the fall or 'winter sow' and what germinates come spring is generally better than the amount from stratifying in the fridge. And like I mentioned above some alliums can take several years to germinate.
For my ramp project, I've taken to just broadcasting the seed in the woodlot and not worrying about it any longer. I'm getting better germination/singletons than ever before, but it takes a couple of years for some of them to show.
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Post by kazedwards on Jun 21, 2017 18:56:20 GMT -5
I have found that winter sowing works really well. Also I just keep the TGS seeds in the fridge after they are died and collected. They also tend to sprout once its warmer in mid to late spring as opposed to early spring like peas.
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Post by mjc on Jul 1, 2017 22:41:47 GMT -5
I've mentioned it before, but alliums seem to have a rather peculiar seed sprouting time table, especially, if they are not being selected for seed reproduction. I've seen them take more than 2 yrs to sprout! Given that you have, over a two year period, seen about half the seeds sprout, it wouldn't surprise me to see some still sprout next year.
As for seed grown garlic bulbing up, it's about the same as bulbils...the first year will produce a round. The second, the round should split into a 'normal' cloved bulb...from then on, it should be 'normal' growth/production.
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Post by richardw on Jul 2, 2017 3:47:18 GMT -5
I've mentioned it before, but alliums seem to have a rather peculiar seed sprouting time table, especially, if they are not being selected for seed reproduction. I've seen them take more than 2 yrs to sprout! Given that you have, over a two year period, seen about half the seeds sprout, it wouldn't surprise me to see some still sprout next year. As for seed grown garlic bulbing up, it's about the same as bulbils...the first year will produce a round. The second, the round should split into a 'normal' cloved bulb...from then on, it should be 'normal' growth/production. Ive had bulbils grow to large cloved bulbs in 10 - 11 months by giving them about 20+cm spacing
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Post by mjc on Jul 9, 2017 20:11:17 GMT -5
Okay...since this thread has seen a bit of interest recently, I decided to leave a few scapes, a couple of weeks ago. So instead of pickling them, I let them straighten out. I just got finished picking the bulbils from them.
This is the garlic that has been growing here for at least 25 yrs. The person who owned this place before my in-laws bought it wasn't sure when it was first planted, but it was several years previously...some time in the early to mid 80s, is my guess, so it's actually been 30 yrs or more. At that time, they just planted a 'good, strong' hardneck garlic. The problem was, that it ended up getting mowed down, that first season, instead of being harvested. Well, that basically made it spread and no longer form bulbs, but rather clumps. Over the years it managed to become a 'permanent' fixture. I usually dig up a few clumps, separate them and get small to medium sized, multi-clove bulbs. With better management, I know the bulbs will get to decent size (medium/large). I've also grown some from bulbils, but I usually end up with rounds the first season and medium or bigger bulbs the second.
So, this year I decided to see if I can get some seed from this garlic.
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Post by kazedwards on Aug 14, 2017 21:56:37 GMT -5
I did the cut scape method last year. The only difference I noticed is that I had better quality bulbs. In years before this I left them in the ground and the bulbs I got looked horrible. Still useable but I'm sure storage past planting time would have been a failure.
Cut scapes last longer than you might think. You just need to change the water often and maybe trim the bottom a few times. They will brown but I think that's because the plant puts all of its energy into seed production. I also think that the last bit is curing. I also cut the scapes off when the ovaries start to swell. That way they are only in water for about a month. I might have waited longer than others have the one time I tried it. I will probably use the cut scape method in the future only because I get better bulbs and my TGS crop is the same as my garlic crop.
Leaving them in the ground has about the same chance of success from what I can tell but you sacrifice bulb quality. The bulbs will look like crap. All of the outer wrappers will be gone and the bulb will look like a skeleton. You will see each clove attached by the basal plate and holes in between with very little covering the whole thing. Although they will still keep until you replant them in the fall. I don't know about your timing up there but here if the scapes are left on to open and produce bulbils/flowers the plant stays green longer. It starts to really die down as the ovaries start to swell. After that it will seem like the plant is dormant but the stem will still be green. Over the next month it will go from green to brown to greyish brown. It will definitely seem like the plant is struggling or dormant but I think it's just focusing on the seeds and using stored energy from the bulb to produce them. The very last thing to die down and turn brown is the umbel. That's when I cut them to dry farther in a paper bag and dig the skeleton garlic.
Either way bulb quality will not be there. The cloves are still usable either way and will last until replanting. I just replant then dry the rest into powder. I don't think either way affects the garlics ability to produce gorgeous bulbs in a different year. As far as your climate and timing. You might just need to keep looking for earlier varieties if the flowers just wither away in the heat. Also make sure to remove the bulbils. They also cause the flower to dry and abort. Hope this helps.
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Post by templeton on Aug 14, 2017 22:38:03 GMT -5
Just a thought - no experience with this, but could you use the techniques florists use to keep blooms alive longer to maintain the cut scapes? I think they use a bit of sugar (for nutrients) in the water, with a dash of vinegar for acidification to suppress bacterial and mould growth. Might work. T
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Post by reed on Aug 15, 2017 10:11:37 GMT -5
This year I have two scapes of kazedwards Chesnok Red that have a few swollen ovaries. I didn't remove bulbils and all the rest of the plant looks dead or dormant but the swollen ovaries are still green. I just cut them and brought them in yesterday, so will see. The Chesnok Red was later blooming than all the other so if there are any seeds they are selfed at least within the variety. I lost track if the plants are any of the three seed grown or not. Other than that I have never seen any thing resembling hope of a garlic seed in my garden before but my plants stay alive and green well after any flowers have dried up. I wonder it is an issue of not enough spring time, going straight from cold to hot weather without enough of a gradual shift. We have that more and more here but at least my own RHH is used to it and since it grows pretty much all winter it has time to mature a lot before the hot dry hits. GB, CR and SR seem adaptable to those conditions but I think Red Russian may have tried to grow too much and stayed too tender so the infrequent but significant spells of cold knocked the snot out of it. I wonder if planting in considerable shade or even lifting some select plants in their entirety and moving to a cooler or shadier location might help. My own thought its that seeds probably mature into the strongest and most vigorous possible if allowed to do so as naturally as possible still attached to the plant. I'm just speculating but I think it gives better storage life, better germination and stronger seedlings. I'm at peace with the notion I have to sacrifice optimal quality or production of some things in order to get best quality seeds.
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Post by richardw on Aug 16, 2017 14:58:45 GMT -5
Ive planted a lot of cloves in and around the fruit trees during winter to see if the shade helps the flowers and if it reduces the rust attack that the whole country endured last summer, i'm hearing some growers up north have rust now, and its still winter.
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Post by kazedwards on Aug 17, 2017 1:40:25 GMT -5
I didn't realize ted's book recommended to cut scapes that early. I would be worried about pollination if the were cut that early. When I cut mine they were well past that and swelling. I plan on three sets of garlic. One for use one for TGS and one for TGS grow outs. I plan on leaving scapes on the plants. I also don't cut open the scapes to open remove the bulbils as soon as possible. I wait until they open and fluff out a bit in their own.
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Post by richardw on Aug 18, 2017 1:23:05 GMT -5
If you are cutting them later Zack and getting seed why would you do anything different if its working.
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Post by tedmeredith on Aug 19, 2017 0:19:42 GMT -5
A few comments on recent posts: On page 149 of my garlic book, I state “Some early experiments hypothesized that competition from the bulb could inhibit flower and seed development. The possibility of competition was eliminated by severing the scapes from the plant just above the pseudostem when the scapes were nearly fully elongated. The scapes were then kept in containers of water for pollination and seed development. Although this method was successful, subsequent efforts with intact plants in the ground have generally been more productive.” The early concern that the bulb would compete with the umbel for resources, thus the presumed need for severing, has generally been discounted as the process has become better understood. Scapes can be severed when they are nearly fully elongated as in the early efforts, which also substantially allows the bulb in the ground to achieve generally normal size. The scape can also be severed later (or not at all) in development to reduce the time the scape must sustain the umbel and ripen and nourish the seed. This, of course, is increasingly at the expense of the bulb in the ground. Cultivars with less robust scapes may do better without severing, or delayed severing. Severing has disadvantages, but advantages as well, such as the ability to move into shade during periods of extreme heat, fostering cross-pollination through proximity of multiple cultivars, a more amenable place to pluck bulbils than in the field, and so forth. Avram Drucker (https://www.garlicana.com/) produces the seed for our project nearly exclusively using the cut scape method, though sometimes substantially delaying severing the scapes. There really is no universal right way or best method. It does depend on cultivar, growing conditions, needs of the farmer, needs of the plant, and so forth. As with most gardening and farming, books and blogs can point us toward productive methodologies, but we really learn what is best for us and our plants in our conditions over several seasons of experience---and we always learn more every year. For the cut scape method, the suggestion of using a cut flower mixture like florists use is very much on the mark. Dr. Rina Kamenetsky has pointed out that poor germination rates for garlic seed are substantially the result of weak seed. For severed scapes she recommends a cut flower mixture to help build nutrient reserves in the seed. Besides commercial products, there are various recipes on the web---essentially sugar for nutrient and typically household bleach for bacterial protection for the cut scape. Periodically trimming the base of the scape as it becomes compromised is a good practice as has been pointed out. A comparison of germination rate for seed from cut scapes versus uncut scapes would be a very interesting and informative project for those who employ both methods. Dr. Maria Jenderek used a foliar fertilizer on the cut scapes as general part of her practices a few decades ago. Dr. Kamenetsky feels that additional fertilizing is unnecessary, but allows that micronutrients could be beneficial. Avram does not use fertilizer in our efforts but does use a nutrient and bleach mixture for the cut scapes. Fertilizing the cut scapes is certainly not critical, but it is something one could experiment with if one is so inclined. The cut flower mixture for severed scapes is strongly encouraged, however. It can be argued that the best farmers and gardeners understand the scientific principles of their efforts, but equally, they develop an intuitive feel for their plants, their land, and their environmental conditions. I am not a particularly good gardener, but for me, the intuitive connectivity aspect is what makes gardening and growing so special and so rewarding. Ted garlicseed.blogspot.com/p/growing-garlic-from-true-seed.html
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Post by steev on Aug 19, 2017 0:53:05 GMT -5
I so enjoy extensive, informed input; those of us less-educated in these matters are greatly benefited, thereby.
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