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Post by richardw on Aug 19, 2017 1:22:15 GMT -5
I agree steev, thanks Ted, every informative.
What i find frustrating is for a few of us kiwis who have worked our butts off trying to get our plants to produce seed to no avail is that we have another one of our follow countrymen who grew LOTS of seed without her even knowing wtf what TGS even was. But now that she does know she hasnt been able replicate that earlier success, dam it.
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Post by meganp on Aug 19, 2017 1:52:17 GMT -5
Hello Ted, you may wish to change the link in your blog from the SSE forum to this thread😉
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Post by richardw on Aug 19, 2017 15:56:25 GMT -5
And what may work one year may not the next year, take that lady i mentuned above that Meganp and myself know quite well, never removed bulbils or anything and look what happens, thank goodness she grew that seed that fall out onto the sorting table.
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Post by tedmeredith on Aug 19, 2017 23:38:09 GMT -5
Richardw—I see that you are on New Zealand’s South Island (home of the world’s finest Sauvignon blancs, handily surpassing France’s Loire). Are your summers rather cool at your location? Seed set is definitely an issue in locations with cool summers---as I very well know at my location near Seattle, Washington in the US. Meganp—thank you very kindly for pointing out the broken forum link. As you suggested, I have removed the old link and included a link to this forum---much appreciated. Ted garlicseed.blogspot.com/p/growing-garlic-from-true-seed.html
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Post by steev on Aug 20, 2017 20:23:02 GMT -5
T: very straight-up and thorough; this is the sort of info that helps.
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Post by kazedwards on Aug 21, 2017 0:00:59 GMT -5
I would say that at the point that I cut them it didn't make much difference on production of seed. I only cut them out of convenience. That's when I had time to dig the garlic to harvest it and didn't want to waste the opportunity to get seed. Flowers had already opened, been pollinated and had started to swell. I took them straight in to the garage so they had little chance of being pollinated any farther. The seed only finished developing after I cut them. As far as number of seeds per plant I couldn't tell you. I would have to look in my notes which are packed in the back of garage that is crammed full of a house worth of stuff(can't wait to move). I also didn't get a chance to sow them unfortunately. It's really a waste I'm not happy about but I plan on it this fall. I wanted to mail them out to some of you guys but didn't get around to it. I guess time got away from me. I probability will not cut them any earlier than I did last year if I ever do again. Mainly because what I'm doing works. At least it has the last several years for the chesnok red that I grow. They produce readily as long as I pick out the bulbils. Even this year I have some flowers that seem to be producing without the bulbils being plucked. I'm just lucky that the garlic I have produces seed so well. The only advantage that I can see to cutting the scapes for me would be better nutrition during the seed development rather than during pollination. And that I get better bulbs of course. I don't really know about other varieties though. I've only just begun growing others besides chesnok red. Those others I might need to try different methods. Time will only tell. For now I just plan on plucking bulbils out after the scapes open and letting them pollinate swell and dry down on the plant. If need to get them dig up I'll cut the scapes I finish them in the garage like last year. I'll keep better track next year and post here so I can give better dates on when I do what and what I look for. I can also start a new thread if you guys want. I think the variety has a big impact on what is best and that there will never be a right time to cut or debulbil across the board. toomanyirons it seems that a lot of your questions are unanswered because no one really knows answers but that is what makes this so much fun. We might be the ones to figure it out which is pretty cool if you ask me. I'm just grateful that we are able to communicate a share ideas and methods. It will definitely help in finding the answers.
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Post by kazedwards on Aug 21, 2017 0:22:53 GMT -5
Also hopefully once the garlic I sent you toomanyirons gets to being full bulbs you will have better luck of getting seed. I also plan on sharing the garlic I have growing from true seed once I have more. So far I only have two new strains that have not been selected in any way. I will say they seem to be different from chesnok red in color and time of maturity but that might only be because they are relatively young in comparison. Increasing them to a shareable quantity is long process. From what I have read each generation from seed has an easier time producing seed and that seed has better germination. That might be what is key to your goal. As in a new variety from seed that easily produces seed every year without a problem regardless of conditions. As opposed to an old variety that will always have a hard time producing seed even when the conditions are right.
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Post by steev on Aug 21, 2017 0:40:55 GMT -5
Indeed so; clearly there is room for controversy; that's a beautiful thing, so let's get cooking on this problem: to clear it up or straighten it out, whichever is the eventual result.
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Post by tedmeredith on Aug 24, 2017 0:30:07 GMT -5
Regarding Chesnok Red/Shvelisi, it is a Purple Stripe and its scapes are less robust than the Marbleds and some of the other variants that are often used for garlic seed. Avram is not working with it now, but when he was he had far better success by leaving it in the ground and not cutting the scapes. Substantially delayed scape cutting would be another variation along those lines. Chesnok Red/Shvelisi is one of my favorite garlics---wonderful complex flavor. The prospect of new cultivars derived from it is certainly appealing. Ted garlicseed.blogspot.com/p/growing-garlic-from-true-seed.html
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Post by richardw on Aug 25, 2017 1:43:50 GMT -5
Richardw—I see that you are on New Zealand’s South Island (home of the world’s finest Sauvignon blancs, handily surpassing France’s Loire). Are your summers rather cool at your location? Seed set is definitely an issue in locations with cool summers---as I very well know at my location near Seattle, Washington in the US. Meganp—thank you very kindly for pointing out the broken forum link. As you suggested, I have removed the old link and included a link to this forum---much appreciated. Ted garlicseed.blogspot.com/p/growing-garlic-from-true-seed.htmlHi Ted, No i would call our inland climate quite warm and dry with low humidity, i'm between the Southern Alps to the west and three low mountain ranges to the east, but its not a hot climate when comparing to much of Australia, but we do get periods where hot winds that come off Australia so temps in the C 30's deg are common along with there bush fire smoke. Seattle gets more rain though like here summer is the driest time of year.
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Post by richardw on Aug 25, 2017 14:50:03 GMT -5
tedmeredith - As ive posted earlier myself and Meganp know a lady who's part of Tokoroa Community Garden Trust in the North Island, she was the one who unknowingly grew TGS with doing nothing to the scapes, have you heard this happening before?, i would imagine it would be more common with wild garlic but this was not. This is going back about 5-6 years ago now, she's never managed to replicate that realer success and neither has Megan & myself growing from that TGS.
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Post by Joseph Lofthouse on Aug 26, 2017 0:42:32 GMT -5
When I originally started working on growing pollinated garlic seeds, I received complete scapes, including bulbils and aborted flowers. There were a few seeds in PI540319.
I didn't remove bulbils from the plants in one of my fields this year. I'm intending to check them closely for seeds before I harvest.
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Post by kazedwards on Aug 26, 2017 1:47:34 GMT -5
Of the chesnok red I still have in the ground the scapes don't look good. Will be looking more closely come next week when I plan on finally digging this unattended bed. The other the bed seemed to have made it just fine. Now I'm just waiting for ground to dry out a bit
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Post by tedmeredith on Aug 28, 2017 0:08:29 GMT -5
richardw—After several generations, some garlic may produce fewer or reportedly sometimes no bulbils and yield seed without bulbil removal. We have not yet experienced that in any dramatic way ourselves, but we hope to. Even in the wild in Central Asia these days it seems that vegetative reproduction via bulbils (and cloves) has become garlics preference for plant reproduction/survival. As far as I know, spontaneous seed production without bulbil removal is very uncommon in cultivars that are not subsequent generations of seed grown, but it does happen on occasion. As has been mentioned, we all would like specific repeatable parameters for garlic seed production, and we certainly do have some good parameters, but garlic seems stubbornly resistant to developing and understanding a full set of consistent parameters. That offers us considerable excitement and reward when we have success, as well as the often considerable frustration when we don’t. As we experiment and share information about our experiences, we do learn more about those elusive parameters, but we do have a long way to go. On the other hand, we are on the forefront of this in many ways as much as the scientists are, and that is exciting. Ted garlicseed.blogspot.com/p/growing-garlic-from-true-seed.html
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Post by reed on Aug 28, 2017 3:58:17 GMT -5
I just found 14 nice looking seeds on a dried up scape of Chesnock Red that I originally got from kazedwards. I didn't keep good enough track to know if it was one of three plants from his seeds last year or one of the others. If I did anything to encourage seed formation it would be neglect. Weed competition, no watering, no bulbil removal.
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