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Post by castanea on Sept 19, 2011 23:44:19 GMT -5
As I have mentioned elsewhere, I know very little about growing onions. I do not have a good understanding of the onion growing process. I do not enjoy the day length issues, the short shelf life of the seeds, or the difficulty in growing some varieties to seed.
So, what I am interested in doing is this - I want to take about a quarter acre and plant at least 20 different types of onions in the spring and see what they do for me. I want them to produce seed and to develop a landrace. So, do I pull them up to store them for planting next year or keep them in the ground? I prefer to keep them in the ground and see what will survive. Would that be possible in zone 6? What also confuses me is that there are wild alliums that overwinter in colder areas than zone 6. So why can't we breed onions that overwinter as well? Wild alliums grow to maturity and set seed and continue the cycle without human intervention. Why can't we do this with onions?
Thanks for any advice.
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Post by Joseph Lofthouse on Sept 20, 2011 1:23:55 GMT -5
In my garden.... Onions are very sensitive to weed pressure. It is easier for me to till the garden overwinter to get rid of the weeds. That gives the onions a good head start over the weeds in the spring. Due to my clay soil, onions are susceptible to rotting when the soil gets wet during the winter (some varieties even during the summer). I'm certain that there are hardy varieties, I just don't allow them the opportunity. I can't use an onion for cooking if it is frozen into the soil, so if I'm harvesting them anyway I just go ahead and harvest the whole crop.
A huge onion grow out patch to me would be about 600 square feet for growing seedlings the first year. 20 foot long rows spaced 18" apart.... So the whole thing fits in an area 20 feet X 30 feet. And they could overwinter in the ground where they grew as seedlings.
I'm a bit more cavalier than most, and much worse at record keeping, so if it was me, first thing I'd do is jumble the seed of all 20 varieties together, and plant a row along the edge of one of my fields, say about two weeks after my last spring frost, after I had carefully weeded the place all fall and all spring. I'd allow them to grow there and overwinter there, and produce seeds the next year. Anything that survived would be a winter-hardy landrace.
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Post by castanea on Sept 20, 2011 19:29:44 GMT -5
Thanks very much, Joseph. I think your approach would be very similar to mine.
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Post by canadamike on Sept 20, 2011 22:57:43 GMT -5
I have grown loads of onions over time, and tend to ''almost'' side on Joseph side. I would, to create a landrace, grow them very close to each other, I have done that successfully, I find closely planted onions easier to deal with, and weeding is easier too, the key is, to me, transplanting them in good soil that has been weeded for years and also peppered with corn gluten, a very effective weed innhibitor that gives some early nitrogen to them without overdoing it. Since genetics is the goal here, bulb size does not matter early on I suppose. It did not for me either as I wanted an easy patch of early cooking onions, and frankly, when we pick them young, there is no loss to brown skin and all, so productivity is there even if size is not. In the last 15 years or so, I always have had a few one square foot patches where I would plant one onion, bulblet or seedling, per square inch to get great green onions then slightly bigger immature ones. No hard weed pressure there, especially if you cover the soil with 3-4 inches of a mix of peat moss, limestone to counteract acidity and compost. The weeds are too deep to hurt you bad, and the onions too numerous. And it is a patch easy to protect for winter, although even here in Canada, onions like KELSEA SWEET GIANT have made it through winter...snow cover. I would suggest to go ''small'' and not take too much space, onions can do it in a small area. They will mass cross setting seed whatever their size...Anything against group sex   |
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Post by 12540dumont on Sept 20, 2011 23:39:46 GMT -5
Castanea,
I am also working on an onion trial. I have found that I can do onions twice a year.
I started seeds in August and will transplant this weekend. These onions will be ready in early spring and will overwinter just fine here in San Martin. As long as I deal with the weed pressure. The last couple of years, we have planted in 50 foot rows (3 rows in a bed) and I put in lettuce or carrots between the rows. I end up pulling the lettuce, instead of cutting it and pulling the carrots. (I've been using the Paris round type carrots). After the carrots and lettuce come out, I compost heavily.
Often onions start to bolt in early spring. (Which is fine). I also have some whole bulbs to put in, but I have to cage these, as the gopher loves them. I want some of the whole bulbs to bolt. These are the ones I harvested this summer.
I plant onions again in the spring. I start them in January along with the tomatoes and transplant them as soon as I can get in the garden in March/April. Some of these bulbs I put back in so that they will go to seed. These were my summer onions.
I also have been doing this with leeks, which has worked very well.
My favorite onion this year was from Bountiful Garden...Mill Creek...it did well Spring and Fall. However, grump grump the packages from Bountiful are puny.
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Post by castanea on Sept 22, 2011 0:25:37 GMT -5
Castanea, I am also working on an onion trial. I have found that I can do onions twice a year. I started seeds in August and will transplant this weekend. These onions will be ready in early spring and will overwinter just fine here in San Martin. As long as I deal with the weed pressure. The last couple of years, we have planted in 50 foot rows (3 rows in a bed) and I put in lettuce or carrots between the rows. I end up pulling the lettuce, instead of cutting it and pulling the carrots. (I've been using the Paris round type carrots). After the carrots and lettuce come out, I compost heavily. Often onions start to bolt in early spring. (Which is fine). I also have some whole bulbs to put in, but I have to cage these, as the gopher loves them. I want some of the whole bulbs to bolt. These are the ones I harvested this summer. I plant onions again in the spring. I start them in January along with the tomatoes and transplant them as soon as I can get in the garden in March/April. Some of these bulbs I put back in so that they will go to seed. These were my summer onions. I also have been doing this with leeks, which has worked very well. My favorite onion this year was from Bountiful Garden...Mill Creek...it did well Spring and Fall. However, grump grump the packages from Bountiful are puny. Interesting. I don't want to do this here in Calfiornia where I'm totally out of space. I want to do it on some new land I bought in zone 6. It's going to take me some time to switch from zone 9 to zone 6 thinking. |
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Post by 12540dumont on Sept 23, 2011 15:04:43 GMT -5
I have a small cabin in Plumas County. I think it's Zone 6 as well. Rhubarb grows wonderfully there. I was going to send you seeds from the trial, but what I have is mostly day neutral varieties. They won't do very well up there. My son planted red onions up in the yard in Greenville. He took up some of the torpedo onions that I started and they didn't do all that well. The Long Day onions fared much better. Southport Red Globe did okay, considering that they didn't get much care. Here's a photo of his garden. I can't even see the onions in this photo. But, I harvested a small basket from this raised bed. These were all Spring/Summer onions. Attachments:
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Post by extremegardener on Sept 24, 2011 10:26:34 GMT -5
I've also been working on this one, actually for quite a while I'm in zone 3/4 and have been throwing whatever I can get my hands on at our winters. My goal is outdoor overwintering onions that are resistant to the diseases we have. There definitely are varieties hardy enough for this. I can't seem to get decent onions grown from seed in the same season, even when started indoors really early. Sets work well, and I've found one variety that's quite promising (Yellow Rock), so I'm growing my own sets. I still have to buy sets to grow enough onions for us to eat, but it's getting there.... I sowed a few varieties in August this year and they're doing well, so far. This Estonian seed company has a few varieties of "hibernal" (overwintering) onions www.seemnemaailm.ee/eng/index.php (You will need Google translate if you're not fluent in Estonian or Russian) I'm trialing them this year. So, it seems that in northern Europe/Russia there is a practice of sowing onion seed in the summer for bulbs the next season. Anybody know more about this? |
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Post by castanea on Sept 24, 2011 11:28:20 GMT -5
I've also been working on this one, actually for quite a while I'm in zone 3/4 and have been throwing whatever I can get my hands on at our winters. My goal is outdoor overwintering onions that are resistant to the diseases we have. There definitely are varieties hardy enough for this. I can't seem to get decent onions grown from seed in the same season, even when started indoors really early. Sets work well, and I've found one variety that's quite promising (Yellow Rock), so I'm growing my own sets. I still have to buy sets to grow enough onions for us to eat, but it's getting there.... I sowed a few varieties in August this year and they're doing well, so far. This Estonian seed company has a few varieties of "hibernal" (overwintering) onions www.seemnemaailm.ee/eng/index.php (You will need Google translate if you're not fluent in Estonian or Russian) I'm trialing them this year. So, it seems that in northern Europe/Russia there is a practice of sowing onion seed in the summer for bulbs the next season. Anybody know more about this? Thanks for the information. I've done a brief web search and can't find anyone who sells Yellow Rock seeds. Everyone sells sets. Where do you get their seeds? I don't want to rely on someone else for sets. |
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Post by castanea on Sept 24, 2011 13:13:10 GMT -5
I've also been working on this one, actually for quite a while I'm in zone 3/4 and have been throwing whatever I can get my hands on at our winters. My goal is outdoor overwintering onions that are resistant to the diseases we have. There definitely are varieties hardy enough for this. I can't seem to get decent onions grown from seed in the same season, even when started indoors really early. Sets work well, and I've found one variety that's quite promising (Yellow Rock), so I'm growing my own sets. I still have to buy sets to grow enough onions for us to eat, but it's getting there.... I sowed a few varieties in August this year and they're doing well, so far. This Estonian seed company has a few varieties of "hibernal" (overwintering) onions www.seemnemaailm.ee/eng/index.php (You will need Google translate if you're not fluent in Estonian or Russian) I'm trialing them this year. So, it seems that in northern Europe/Russia there is a practice of sowing onion seed in the summer for bulbs the next season. Anybody know more about this? What are you growing from Seemnemaailm? They have 61 varieties of onion seeds! |
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Post by toad on Sept 24, 2011 15:18:36 GMT -5
So, it seems that in northern Europe/Russia there is a practice of sowing onion seed in the summer for bulbs the next season. Anybody know more about this? I know of this practice, although it's not a common or commercial practice. You need special cultivars with a good winter survival rate, and sow them neither too early or too late (aug-sept here). Some people do it this way, others sow outdoor in late winter (march). Either way, they need water and some kind of feeding, like nettle-water. It's said, that the march sown has the best keeping properties. Better try it out for yourself, to see if it's a fact. Anyway, weed are the biggest problem here when direct sowing onion. That problem is much smaller in late winter, than in august-september, when soil is still warm. Onion germinate well in cold soil. And as written before, alway go for the right daylength cultivars, or breed your own. |
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Post by canadamike on Sept 24, 2011 16:58:10 GMT -5
We have a though winter, like extremegardener, but over the years I have been pretty lucky with onions surviving in the ground, thanks to our usual snow cover. Years ago, I gave many KELSEA SWEET GIANT seedlings to a neighbour, she ended up to busy in her store to harvest the big onions in the fall, and they all survived beautifully, as expected here, giving loads of huge fat green onions in spring. The key is to harvest before the main stem gets woody and ready to flower. I do not think survival is to be much questioned in my area despite peaks of minus 40 , thanks to snow again. I usually get better onions from transplants, albeit a lil' smaller, but they keep much better than onion sets.
Over the years, I have had many great onions from leftovers of the previous season left in the ground. The key seemed to be spacing and weeds absence around them, or early weeding in spring.
Potato onions, including true french shallots, are pretty good at this game...
They are by far an undervalued crop, as they offer a bountiful and easier crop almost all the time.
The bulbs might not be as cute as some perfectly round commmercial onions, but once in the mouth, who cares...One thing is sure, if I was left with only ONE choice of allium cepa to grow, it would be an aggregatum one ( potato etc..) they are workhorses...
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Post by extremegardener on Sept 29, 2011 14:59:44 GMT -5
I've done a brief web search and can't find anyone who sells Yellow Rock seeds. Everyone sells sets. Where do you get their seeds? I don't want to rely on someone else for sets. I've had to grow my own seed from the purchased sets. I have a feeling the set growers don't want the seed to be available. So, at this point the only way to get this variety is buy the sets and grow 'em out. I'm into a third or fourth generation from purchased sets, but I'm still building up the stock - I only save seed from over winterers. |
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Post by extremegardener on Sept 29, 2011 15:13:15 GMT -5
What are you growing from Seemnemaailm? They have 61 varieties of onion seeds! ;D Yeah, with 61 varieties I just had to get the USDA permit and put in an order. My notes are in disarray at the moment, but these are some of the varieties I got from them this year that seemed like they might have promise for my project: Bagrovy Mjach FERMER Pozdní FERMER RANNII Hiberna Komissar Krepysh Mjachkovsky 300 Odintsovets Retro Strigunovsky In a couple of years I can give some sort of evaluation.... working with onions is slowww... |
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Post by extremegardener on Sept 29, 2011 15:34:30 GMT -5
I know of this practice, although it's not a common or commercial practice. You need special cultivars with a good winter survival rate, and sow them neither too early or too late (aug-sept here). Some people do it this way, others sow outdoor in late winter (march). Either way, they need water and some kind of feeding, like nettle-water. It's said, that the march sown has the best keeping properties. Better try it out for yourself, to see if it's a fact. Anyway, weed are the biggest problem here when direct sowing onion. That problem is much smaller in late winter, than in august-september, when soil is still warm. Onion germinate well in cold soil. And as written before, alway go for the right daylength cultivars, or breed your own. Thanks for confirming that! I have been working with Sept. sowings, but the success was so/so. This year I did some August sowings, but it's not so easy here to start them in August - I had to baby them with row covers, and at least daily watering. The seedlings I do have now from August sowing are looking very good, so I think it may be worth the trouble to get bigger seedlings going into the winter. We have snow cover well into April, so I really have to get them started one way or another the season before. I have been focussing on the long-day length types, of course, but I have also tried some short day and neutral varieties and found one or two with some promise. What I have noticed is that onions, more so than a lot of other plants, seem to change their behavior in response to their environment over the years. |
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