Doomsday Challenge

[synergy]

Walk, what an amazing resource your website is. I am reposting the link so more people can check it out:
www.geopathfinder.com/
Thank you so much for undertaking and sharing another great example of how we might strive to improve upon how we are living.
I am looking at this Doomsday Challenge more as striving to do what we can to ensure a livable planet. I think the harder we push to keep taking the next step to live harmoniously with our planet , we gain also in establishing an example of what quality of life should be. If disaster tanked 50 % of the population in 2012 that would be possibly easier to deal with than the affects of the worlds population continuing as they are , so presuming we have future generations to leave a legacy for this challenge needs to start this moment and every moment forward.

[zachary]

Nov 8, 2011 10:56:03 GMT -5 Walk said:

The "Resilient Gardener" by Carol Deppe is a thought provoking starting point to get into the subsistence mindset.

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I've been meaning to thank you for this suggestion. I bought the book (at full price, alas) and decided it was worth every cent before I'd gotten out of the introduction!

Right now I'm making some seed orders, and am looking for the parched corn varieties Ms Deppe favors. Also for the squash varieties she liked for drying.

[oxbowfarm]

Finding Carol Deppe's recommended varieties can be maddening. In quite a few cases she is the only source.

[Joseph Lofthouse]

Dec 23, 2011 17:13:39 GMT -5 oxbowfarm said:

Finding Carol Deppe's recommended varieties can be maddening. In quite a few cases she is the only source.

In case you haven't noticed... I am mostly not participating in the "Favorite Vegetable" threads... The reason being is that I only know of one or two varieties of each species that are suitable culinarily and agriculturally to my garden. In nearly every case the only varieties that I would recommend are varieties that I developed specifically for my farm, for my family, and for my village. You would get so bored with me if my response to every "Favorite Vegetable" thread was "Joseph's ______"

In 5 years, Carol's varieties will be widely available, however, many of them will grow very poorly once they leave the Pacific northwest and head out into gardens with more sunlight, less moisture, hotter temperatures, greater temperature variation between night and day, and lower fertility.

I think we would do better by developing our own varieties for our own gardens, rather than by trying to import Carol's genetics into our gardens.

[oxbowfarm]

But in order to develop your own varieties you have to have something to start with, everyone has to "import genetics" you yourself do it constantly. I don't see why starting with Carol's genetics is any less valid than starting with seed from any other source. A huge percentage of commercial vegetable seed is produced in the Willamette Valley already, yet most of it does just fine across the country.

[Joseph Lofthouse]

Dec 24, 2011 7:20:51 GMT -5 oxbowfarm said:

But in order to develop your own varieties you have to have something to start with, everyone has to "import genetics" you yourself do it constantly. I don't see why starting with Carol's genetics is any less valid than starting with seed from any other source. A huge percentage of commercial vegetable seed is produced in the Willamette Valley already, yet most of it does just fine across the country.

I actively discourage the use of Carol's genetics partly because I am an iconoclast: Her varieties seem to me to have acquired cult status as The Holy Gene of plant breeding. Due to my past bad experiences with religion in general, and cults in particular, I would discourage the use of her varieties for that reason alone, even if there were not ecological reasons to discourage their adoption in the rest of the country.

Carol lives in one of the most extreme gardening environments in the country. Her conditions are far out of the mainstream weather patterns. Any seeds that she grows are particularly mal-adapted to gardens in the rest of the usa.

I'm not picking on Carol as an individual. Among my neighbors, I actively discourage the use of seeds grown in Oregon. That is due to my garden, and the garden's of my neighbors being at the exact opposite extreme of climate from Oregon. My neighbors are constantly complaining to me that their gardens burn up... They have the same irrigation water, and the same soil, and the same weather as I do. The only difference is that they have sourced their Organic seeds from Oregon. It's not every species, and every variety, but it is a huge problem for us. We are much better off sourcing our seeds from anyplace other than the Pacific Northwest. I suspect that other areas of the country also experience this effect to some degree or other.

I bring lots of genetics into my garden from far away... But only as part of a breeding program, never with the expectation of harvesting a crop from them, or feeding my family. I expect that it will take 2-3 years of selection before I'll get an edible harvest. (And often times never.)

Whatever varieties Carol is growing in her garden, there are similar varieties nearby that are much better adapted to local conditions: Wherever local happens to be. Save yourselves the pain and trouble of a long tedious breeding project by starting with genetics that are already better adapted to your region. In other words: Go local.

[oxbowfarm]

Dec 24, 2011 12:36:13 GMT -5 Joseph Lofthouse said:

I actively discourage the use of Carol's genetics partly because I am an iconoclast: Her varieties seem to me to have acquired cult status as The Holy Gene of plant breeding. Due to my past bad experiences with religion in general, and cults in particular, I would discourage the use of her varieties for that reason alone, even if there were not ecological reasons to discourage their adoption in the rest of the country.

The Cult of Carol Deppe has got to be one of the most pathetic cults ever.

How many rabid plant breeding enthusiasts worship at her altar?

If there were more than two or three hundred serious amateur plant breeders in the world I would be astonished. The Tom Wagners and Tim Peters of the world got started without her. Then there are maybe a few thousand (and I am being generous) folks who have read the very valuable books she wrote and are just beginning to dabble in breeding and saving their own stuff. I count myself among that second category.

Who gives a crap if the genetics aren't perfectly adapted to ones region? Why actively discourage folks from getting their hand into breeding using whatever material they choose? Failure is an inevitable part of the process, and it can teach you a lot. Has it occurred to you that possibly the reason Oregon seed fails in your area is that you also "garden in one of the most extreme environments in the country"? I assure you that Oregon seed works just dandy here in the Northeast. Could some of it be better adapted? You bet. But the genetics work perfectly well as a jumping off place. Isn't now a better time for people to be trying/failing/ learning these things than once the safety net is gone?

I admire your work Joseph, but in this case you are not being an "iconoclast" you are being a curmudgeon. Why?

The "cult status" argument doesn't even pass the guffaw test, there aren't even enough people in the amateur plant breeding community to make much of a subculture, let alone a cult. If Carol Deppe has any cache it is because she has written the best and most accessible work on the subject.

[12540dumont]

Joseph, I partly agree with you, but only partly. Carol in an e-mail to me voiced her concern that her veges were bred for the Pac Northwest, and felt that the would not do well in California. However, California has more varied climates than most other states. We have areas with the coldest temperatures in the West, (like Truckee) and the hottest in the West, (like Needles). I'm in the central Coast and SOME of her veges do fine here. Likewise 90% of what I buy from Vermont, Solstice Seed does great. I have not had good luck with Territorial Seed. Some things from Baker Creek do miserably here. I have take your other road of advice and have not given up on something that did not do well in its first season.

Instead, I saved the seed, and replanted it the following season. If I have 2 onions and one does great and the other poorly, I may skip the wimpy one altogether. But I may save the seeds from both of them. The purpose for this is two fold. One is to test your theory that seeds acclimatize. The second is that I don't know what is happening with our climate.

Last year I had deluge, this year not enough to bump a line on the rain gauge. What if that onion does great in a dry year but poorly in a wet year? I hate to reject a seed that may have merit under different conditions.

[grunt]

Use Carol's varieties as a starting point, along with anything else that has traits you would like to have in what ever crop is involved. Go with what repeats the traits you want the best, and leave enough diversity in your selections that the vagaries of climate can be accommodated. Avoid myopic selection, and plant a mix of traits every year, so an atypical year doesn't leave you hungry.
I gathered from the first of Carol's books that I read, that she was antsy about people thinking that her results were going to be perfect for everyone. I have reached the stage in my selections, where I don't try and push the envelope for growing season. I have, on average, 140 to 160 frost free days = but my cool nights mean that that is effectively about 125 to 130 days for growth results. I don't try things that are marginally day length sensitive. because they usually don't start setting until it's too late for 90% to mature.
I am fortunate to be in an area that makes it impossible for me to select for disease resistance = I don't have any. If I want to try for drought tolerance, I have to deliberately not water beds = most summers we get no rain from mid June to the first week of September = if I don't irrigate, I have a fire hazard in my beds.
I'm getting somewhat off point here, but I think it's only common sense not to expect varieties selected for any particular climate extreme, to be a panacea everywhere.
I hope at least part of the above makes sense.
Merry Christmas, everyone.

[synergy]

I always learn something reading the comments here, thank you everyone .

[templeton]

As usual, a stimulating discussion. It would be great to get some local seed varieties as Joseph mentions, but where I live, from whom? Nearly all the non-corporate varieties I've come across in Australia, which aren't many, are either US 'heritage' imports, or from southern European migrants arriving after WWII- hardly locally adapted strains.

In my town of 70,000+ there are 4 community gardens supported by perhaps a couple of dozen people in total, growing mainstream varieties along conventional organic irrigated principles. They wouldn't know what the ...heck a landrace was.

Nearby 'hippy' towns with stronger sustainability foci have double the rainfall, and frosts, different soils, and their varieties are not going to be much better for me than stuff from similar areas across the country, commercial sources, or even international accessions.

I have lots of sympathy with Joseph's perspective - it has always bugged me that the permaculture movement (is that very big in North America?) has gravitated to temperate, wet, fertile coastal northern new south wales - heaven on earth, to be sure, but we can't all live in Mullumbimby or Woodenbong! Permaculture might be a great system, but the challenge isn't to get it to work where any idiot can throw seed on the ground and grow a feed, it's getting it to work where growing is a bit more uncertain and challenging.

I follow this discussion with interest.
T

[Deleted]

It would be great to get some local seed varieties as Joseph mentions, but where I live, from whom?

I think the idea is to gather interfertile varieties, and the land makes the final decision, as to selection.

Noone can ultimately say whether counterintuitive crop choices would contribute some beneficial trait, many generations into the future, provided that the offspring are capable of growing independently of further, human intervention.

[12540dumont]

I'm always nervous about selection and tend to end up keeping and re-planting everything.

I have read everything about selection and it only makes me more nervous. Every time Joseph mentions inadvertent selection, I think he's talking about me.

While pointing a finger..."She's the one who selected for early cabbage...then it all froze...and we're starving."

Honestly, I get nightmares about the Bok Choy. I selected for late flowering. What if an early frost comes and I don't get any seed? Argghh. It's enough to make me lay down with a cool cloth over my eyes.

I selected for sweetness and the following year bugs ate everything.

I selected for size, and only got one instead of 10. These scenarios play out when I'm supposed to be sleeping. While the mantra of "save the seeds" repeats endlessly.

Thank God for morning and I could go do something important like harvesting the fennel before it freezes. 20 degrees this morning.

Merry Christmas you all.

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[Joseph Lofthouse]

I plant a lot of counter-intuitive plant varieties in my garden.

Some species result in 100% crop failures year after year. (Peanuts, chickpeas, argyrosperma, lagenaria, lima, luffa.) I have no expectation of ever feeding my family with these.

Some species are not generally grown here, due to being so far out of their range, but have produced at least some harvest in some years (Okra, watermelon, cantaloupe, moschata, maxima, sweet potato.) The first year I plant these in my garden I can expect 75% to 99.9% crop failure. But because some plants survive long enough in some years to produce seed, there is hope that with enough varieties, and enough individuals, and enough crossing, and enough diversity that eventually I'll be able to grow them reliably in my garden. Even if a plant doesn't produce a fruit, it might contribute pollen. This is where my passion comes in breeding my own varieties. It was not until the third generation that my cantaloupes or moschatas did well enough to have any for market. I don't know where the surviving genes came from... For all I know there could be some contribution from Oregon or Deppe varieties. With the marginal crops I might trial and/or cross hundreds of varieties in order to get enough diversity for something to thrive in my garden. Breeding these varieties is a huge drain on labor and resources, but if successful the payback is spectacular!!!

Then there are the common species: everyone in my village grows them, they produce adequately: (corn, pepo, beet, turnip, spinach, pea, bean, tomato, carrot, onion, garlic, cucumber, potato.) These are the varieties that I think have the most potential for crop improvement by the average gardener in my village. It doesn't take much additional labor or resources to conduct a crop improvement project, and the results can be dramatic. There are huge differences in performance between varieties, and location of origin makes a big difference in how they grow. It's very easy to choose the wrong variety: Planting a 90 day tomato instead of a 70 day tomato would doom the crop in most years. But if 5-10 varieties are planted on the same day and grown side by side, it becomes easy to see which varieties do best, and to save seeds from the individual plants that grow best. My spinach landrace was finalized in the first growing season. It was trivial to observe which individuals/varieties grow best in my garden. I think that the commonly grown crops are where the most gains can be made the quickest and easiest by sourcing the seed locally. There is a lot of experience and local germplasm already existing in the community.

My experience is that the specifically adapted local strains nearly always do better than the broad adaptability of the corporate strains. Second best if local seeds are not available are regional seeds: Something that at least shares the same general climate, pests, soil, and culture as my garden.

In my village, we are regularly swapping seeds with each other. It helps that I go to the farmer's market every week, so people come and talk to me. I'm not asking for seeds, but people bring them anyway. I suspect that there is a rich abundance of local seeds available in every community. I regularly stop at farm stands and roadside tables so that I can acquire local germplasm. I wish that I would organize a local seed swap: Host a pot-luck lunch at a park or something. But I'm not much of an organizer.

[Joseph Lofthouse]

I deal with selection anxiety by splitting my landraces:

So I end up with "earliest tomato", and "early tomatoes", and "main season tomatoes", and "odd-ball tomatoes"

I end up with "small butternuts", and "medium necked squash", and "huge moschatas", and "hybrid swarm squash".

I aim towards saving about 80% of my seed crop from the best growing plants, and to save about 20% of the seed from anything that produces seeds. Sometimes I jumble all of the saved seed into the same lot, and sometimes I save a "Best of" lot of seed and an "Everything Else" lot of seed.

The boundaries are very fluid, so I frequently move things between seed lots.